Show #374 Living your life by your rules – and the rules can change, with Chris Guillebeau


About this show:

How intentionally do you design your life? 

In this show, that’s what we’re talking about with Chris Guillebeau, who’s a New York Times bestselling author of The $100 Startup, Side Hustle, The Happiness of Pursuit, and other books. During a lifetime of self-employment that included a four-year commitment as a volunteer executive in West Africa, he visited every country (193 in total) before his 35th birthday. Chris designed his life from an early age and loves showing people who feel called to a more unconventional path, potential ways forward – my favourite thing about Chris and why I brought him to us? No Guru complex. There’s a beautiful, gentle style while also calling on us to expose our own hard truths and tap into our gifts. He’s a great encourager in a world of protocols, critics and clickbait, leading us towards something deeper with this one precious life. 


I hope you love it


Founder of Low Tox Life and the Low Tox movement



Connect with Chris on the following platforms:

Website —



Thank you to this month’s sponsor for partnering with our show and helping you make your swaps with their special offer: 


Waters Co. gives you 12% off all NEW systems – including benchtops, jug, mini, shower filters + Under-sink products with code LOWTOXLIFE.


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Be sure to join me on Instagram @lowtoxlife and tag me with your shares and AHAs of this week’s episode.





Title show track, by LIOR.

Love the podcast music? You will hear excerpts from Lior’s track “Caught Up”  – go check it out on iTunes or Spotify if you want to hear the whole song or album, Scattered Reflections. Co-written with Cameron Deyell, it’s a great song and I love the reflective energy of it – perfect for the show, right? Enjoy. Lior is always touring, so do check out his website. It is wonderful to hear him sing live, trust me.

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About Chris Guillebeau



Chris Guillebeau is the New York Times bestselling author of The $100 Startup, Side Hustle, The Happiness of Pursuit, and other books. During a lifetime of self-employment that included a four-year commitment as a volunteer executive in West Africa, he visited every country in the world (193 in total) before his 35th birthday. His daily podcast, Side Hustle School, is downloaded more than two million times a month. He also writes the newsletter A Year of Mental Health at

Connect with Chris on the following platforms;

Website —




More About This Low Tox Episode’s Sponsor:


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(0:00 – 3:08)

What if you could explore designing your life? Well, today, that’s what you can do on the LOW TOX Life podcast. Hello, and welcome to the LOW TOX Life podcast. I’m Alex Stewart, your host, founder of the LOW TOX movement. 


And today, show 374, I have the wonderful Chris Guillebeau. I he is the New York Times bestseller of The Hundred Dollar Startup, Side Hustle, The Happiness of Pursuit, and many other books. He has visited 193 countries, and he did it before his 35th birthday. 


And I spoke at a blogger conference that Chris was the keynote for many, many years ago. I think it was about 12 years ago. And he was just such a lovely guy to chat to. 


I remember at the cocktail party, and I’ve kept in touch with what he’s done since. I always read a book that he puts out because there are always so many wonderful things that he shares. And I reached out to him recently because I didn’t realize he also had ADHD. 


And he was starting to write about mental health more. He has a great sub stack. And I was curious to connect with him as someone who has literally decided to make it part of his life to teach people how to be brave enough to live more unconventional lives based on listening to their deep truths, acknowledging the seasons they might be in and proceeding accordingly, but also mapping out very practically. 


Chris is so big on the how to do that. I thought it could be a good thing to explore. I know a lot of women in our community in midlife explore these sorts of questions. 


What’s next? How could I design different? I mean, I’ve forgotten even how to design or plan or I’ve been so busy and family stuff or in this career. But then we have a lot of men in our community as well, especially podcast listeners of all ages. And a lot of us are doing this at the moment in the world with how fast paced it is. 


And then AI comes along and disrupts everything and creates a whole bunch of questions, global conflicts. I mean, there are so many things that make us feel uncertain. And in today’s show, I would like to think that Chris and I do a really interesting and lovely job of exploring some of the things one might come up against on the journey to designing a life on purpose more.


(3:10 – 3:26)

And what to do and sharing a few stories ourselves at different points and what that’s looked like. So I’m going to hook into that conversation in a little minute. The podcast can only happen every single week with these incredible guests, thanks to our wonderful sponsors.


(3:26 – 5:17)

And that those sponsors are picked by me personally to help you make your low-tox swaps a little bit easier with the incredible and lovely generous discounts they give us. So a reminder, you have dehumidifiers, air purifiers from the Winix range from Oz Climate, 10% off code is lowtoxlife. And I’ve recorded so that I don’t take away from the intro and blab on here. 


I’ve actually started to record if these are things that you need, yeah, someone’s got eczema, someone’s got asthma, we’ve got a dust mite allergy, and there’s always mold in the walk-in robe at the end of summer. These sorts of questions, I’ve actually put together some of the tips and ways that you can choose well from the range. So head to the podcast show notes, forward slash podcast, click on today’s show, and you’ll see more ways that you can make the most of dehumidifiers and air purifiers in your home. 


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They have benchtops, jugs, brilliant little travel filter called the mini waterman, literally one of my things that I own. And the 12% off is lowtoxlife for the code as well. And I’ve started to put together some highlights on Instagram that help bring to life why you might want to consider filtering your water. 


For me, it is number one on my lowtox change list. So head to Instagram, hit highlights, and you’ll see a few reasons why there. Let us now talk about this life by design.


(5:17 – 9:51)

Ooh, such a good chat. I hope you enjoy. Hello, Chris, how are you doing? I’m doing great, Alex. 


How are you? Very well, thank you. And I would like to acknowledge that two people with ADHD arrived on time for this call. I think that’s a beautiful thing. 


It’s worth celebrating. Across an ocean, no less, different time zones and such, but thanks to the wonders of technology and our commitment to connect, here we are. Exactly. 


Now we connected many, many years ago back when blogging, I would say certainly in Australia was in its infancy. And you were one of our global gurus of writing online, I remember. And so I, you know, met you at this conference, and we were both speaking. 


And then I thought, I’m going to pick up one of these guys book, he was, he was great. And I picked up the art of nonconformity. And in that book, you actually talk about not being a guru and, and how to actually form a relationship with people when you are sharing ideas online, that allows them to feel empowered on their journey of exploring what an unconventional life might look like for them or a life lived true to self. 


And have you got something against gurus? Not, not really. Or the idea of being one? Yeah, I’m not sure it’s like for or against, it’s more just like staking out a different claim, perhaps. And I like to encourage people to think for themselves. 


And, you know, we all learn from each other. I think that’s really important. Like we’re always learning from different people. 


So it’s not that you’re completely self taught. But ultimately, I think you’re going to be better off if you kind of discover things on your own, you know, through the help of different resources, and books and such. But I always try to push back when people, you know, are asking me for asking me for advice about things that might not be qualified to answer, just because it’s their life, you know, their life, their context, their circumstance. 


But what we can do is share stories and share examples. And like, well, here’s somebody else that had this experience. And here’s what they did and what they learned from that. 


And your answer might be a little bit different. But there might be something that you can take from that. And I think ultimately, that’s more empowering, actually, than just being like, here’s your situation, here’s what you need to do, you know, tomorrow in your career or your relationship. 


Because it might not be the right answer, first of all, but then also, like, even if it is that gets them like one step, and then what do they do next? So they come back to you for more advice, like that’s not the goal, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I find this in health, a lot or spirituality, modern spirituality, a lot of people are trying to reconnect with a higher sense of being beyond the human tangible. And I always think, you know, if we try to guruize people who are just really good at being on the internet, as well, you know, there’s that. 


We miss maybe noticing that they’re actually searching themselves, and they’re on a journey themselves. And what they say is working for them is always changing as well. I see this all the time, just because I noticed stuff like that. 


And of course, yeah. And I think that is it’s not a red flag. I think that’s too strong. 


But it is a to develop an awareness for everyone’s just out here trying to do, you know, their life true to them. And therefore, we need to maintain that element of the centrality of the search rather than the externalization or ways of it. Yeah, that’s beautiful. 


Maybe it’s maybe it’s an asterisk, like more than a red flag. It’s like a little thing to note. And, you know, I always think people people struggle in lots of ways, like and I struggle with things, maybe at times, you’ve had some struggles. 


And when we try to do something, and then we fail for whatever reason, it can be it can be discouraging, right. And so I think people are often like following different methods or systems or tips or hacks and such. And then for whatever reason, it doesn’t work out for them, or it works for a little while, and it stops. 


And so with that guru perspective, then they think, oh, I’m the failure point, right? So this is obviously this works for this person on the internet, and for lots of their followers, but it didn’t work for me. So something is wrong with me. And of diet culture.


(9:51 – 10:09)

Yeah, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. 


And lots of other things, you know, as well. And so if you can kind of take that away and say, Oh, well, you’re actually not the failure point, you know, there’s there’s just maybe a different way that will work for you. Or some other way that you could actually be more successful in whatever your goal is, whether it’s health or wellness or something else.


(10:10 – 18:10)

Then again, that’s like, that’s more empowering, right? And that’s, that’s better to help them I think you use the phrase like, their better self or some or their more authentic self, something like that. Yeah, I one of the examples that I can share in my own life, where I really realized, Oh, my gosh, it’s not me. Or actually, it is me. 


And that’s why this isn’t working for me is reading, get organized style books. Yes, written on the basis of neurotypical research, and what has worked for neurotypical people. And the thought leader is neurotypical. 


And the reader is often ironically neurodivergent, because they’re not organized. And that’s actually the largest group of people. Yes. 


And there’s just such a disconnect with that kind of followership, because it further drives the stakes of shame that that person has probably had their entire lives around that kind of stuff. Yeah, I’m so glad you said that. I do feel like these days, all of a sudden, maybe in the past couple of years, maybe it’s kind of a post pandemic kind of thing, that more and more people are kind of putting forward a different perspective about that. 


But it’s, it’s been very hard to challenge that perspective, because it’s just, it’s so pervasive, and so executive, you know, it’s like, this is what executives do, right? And it’s, it’s very, like, hyper masculinized, very certain type of executive, but then that that’s the culture that kind of permeates and such. And so it is very hard to say, Oh, but I read the get organized book, and then it didn’t work for me. But look, there’s all these five star reviews of it. 


And like, I went to a seminar, and somebody was teaching the methods there. So it must be me, right? But if you, as you said, if you can learn, like, there’s a lot you can learn, you know, as neurodivergent, or anybody who just kind of thinks differently, or, you know, it doesn’t have to be like diagnosed, right? Anybody who wants to do something a little bit different, there are all kinds of strategies, you can learn that actually will work better for you, right? And then it can be so empowering to discover that. And it’s sad that a lot of people don’t discover it, you know, sometimes their whole lives. 


But it’s really exciting when people do. So hopefully, people are coming to your interviews, and a lot of the work that you do, it’s going to be helpful in that way. Oh, yeah, we shake things up. 


And I asked what led, did you feel a sense of pull in your late teens to an unconventional life? Like, was, was there a sense of, for me, it was a sense of allergic reaction to life that was being presented. It was like, Oh, I can’t be here. And it felt really visceral, but I’d love to know what that whether there was a feeling and a pull for you? Yeah, well, quite similar. 


I like that language as well. I think, you know, sometimes like boys and girls can act out in different ways, you know, sometimes it’s similar, but often, you know, like, boy behavior, like teenage boy behavior, like preteen is very much like acting out, you know, in this rebellious kind of way. And so I had a lot of that it was like, I think you first asked, like, how was I drawn to an unconventional life or something? And like, I don’t, I didn’t really consider any alternative, like, I didn’t know anything else, because a lot of what school wasn’t working well for me. 


And I had been in a lot of different, a lot of trouble and such, you know, I had gotten arrested a couple of times at the age of 13 and 14. And I never actually finished high school, you know, in the States. And I later went on to university, but that’s like another story. 


So I dropped out of high school or secondary school. And so that’s what those are kind of like the negative experiences. But simultaneously, I had this like inner world, you know, which is often how like ADHD manifests, you know, more for girls, at least traditionally, and in some ways, but I had this like inner world. 


And like, I really liked to make things I like to like work on projects, and I liked to have goals and pursue them, they just weren’t really aligned with like traditional goals of I need to get on this particular career track and study this and so on. So yeah, I guess I was very fortunate to have like a range of experiences at a certain time in my life, that allowed me to understand that the world was both bigger than I knew that like the world was bigger than the world I had known. But also it was somewhat accessible, like there were things I could do to be part of it. 


So I lived overseas for quite a while, like in my early 20s. And that made a big, big difference, like being in West Africa for several years, as an aid worker. And then I also kind of learned to work on my own, I was like an early entrepreneur, probably what I was talking about at that conference we met at many years ago, with Darren Rouse. 


And so I had these skills that I had cobbled together, and opportunities that I had had taken, like going to Africa to be an aid worker. And all of that really helped me to like then develop eventually a career and such. But I do feel really fortunate that a bunch of things came together, you know, like I don’t know if it’s like all at once, but in the same way, over a period of years. 


And so you casually kind of just throw out there that you’re an aid worker in West Africa, and like, people kind of go, but how did you do that? And what gave you the courage to do that? Like, can we unpack that a little bit? It was more inspiration than courage. It was, this was, let’s see, 2001, 2002, to kind of, you know, date myself here. But I remember reading this story about Sierra Leone being the poorest country in the world, according to the UN Human Development Index. 


And there was an organization that was working there, bringing a hospital ship with doctors and surgeons who were doing procedures that wouldn’t otherwise be done there and actually supporting the local health system. I thought, well, this is really interesting. It’s a ship with like 400 people on board, they need a lot of support staff, you know, I don’t have any medical training, but they need people to do like anything, right, logistics and such. 


And I read a story of a doctor, a surgeon from California who had been there at that point for like 18 years or something. And he met his wife there, another volunteer, they had kids brought them up there. And I was really challenged by that personally. 


And I thought, this is cool. If he can do that, you know, for so long, and lots of other volunteers, you know, elsewhere around the world as well, then, you know, I want to be part of that. And so I actually liked the whole thing about it, the poorest country in the world. 


So like, I’m always attracted to like the extremes of things. I’m like, I want to go where the need is greatest, or where I can help the most. And so that’s kind of how that came to be. 


And it really is not courage, it really is like, this is exciting. And this is going to be really good for me, hopefully, I’ll be able to like, you know, make a difference and support this NGO. And, you know, like people will be better off, but I have no doubt. 


And certainly looking back, like I had no doubt then and not now either, that I also benefited a great deal, you know, from that, because it, you know, helped me become like who I am, and gave me the perspective that I’m still kind of operating from to some degree now. Was there someone in your life growing up that showed you the magic of giving to actually feel a sense of receiving within yourself? Like, yeah, I mean, if there was, it was, it was more like, as you said, show, you know, it wasn’t like, told, right? I’m sure that was demonstrated to me, you know, in lots of ways. I don’t have a specific example. 


But I just like later, I developed this phrase of like, selfish, selfish generosity, you know, as we are generous in different ways, you know, with our time or whatever, then, then we ourselves benefit, you know, so it’s not really like, people always use this language of like, oh, you’re making a sacrifice and such. I’m like, I mean, it’s more like an investment, you know, that you get so much out of giving, right? Yeah. Yeah. 


Those were wonderful. Those are really wonderful years. And like, I wouldn’t trade that for anything.


(18:13 – 19:05)

Amazing, has changed. And I mean, I think you’ve traveled to what 100 and you wrote the book, literally 192 countries. Has making all of those changes, decisions to go to all those places, has it ever got you scared at any point? I mean, I’ve been scared of a lot of things. 


I don’t, I haven’t really been scared of travel. I actually really liked the idea of having this travel goal and then putting it in a box, like I had a specific container, I had a list that it that it went with. It’s funny, because that was the criticism at the time as well of like, oh, he’s not really traveling. 


He’s just like checking things off a list. I’m like, oh, you don’t understand the list is actually a big part of it. The list is part of what’s exciting to me. 


Like, I do love to travel. And, you know, I’ve spent many years living overseas and lots of different cultures and places and stuff. But I also do, I am very goal oriented.


(19:06 – 21:24)

I know that about myself. And it’s just fun to kind of put these things together and to see that I’m making progress towards something. And it’s not about, you know, the first half of the quest was not public. 


I didn’t have a blog or it was just like, I’m just doing this because it wasn’t like hashtag 192. Follow me. Right, right. 


Exactly. Yeah, this is before all that. Yeah, way, way, way pre tick tock, for sure. 


Pre Instagram, you know, but you asked about being afraid. I’ve been afraid of lots of other like things in my life, but not so much like the travel. You know, travel is easy. 


What gets you scared then? I mean, personal growth is what’s is what’s scary, I think, you know, like learning about yourself and being learning to be more honest with yourself and being willing to change yourself. I think that’s what’s and I don’t know if it’s scary. It’s also just kind of different. 


For me, you know, like, I, I felt like I had this wide range of experiences. You know, when I was, when I was 30, I’d been to like 100 countries and I was 35. I finished I went to like, that was when I got to 193. 


And, you know, I was like hosting events and conferences and done all these little things. But I also had, I also felt very very behind in lots of ways. Like I started going to therapy around this time. 


And I was like, well, I know nothing, I know nothing about all this. And my therapist actually shared with me, you know, and I think maybe it was in like our first couple of sessions, she said very diplomatically, you know, she was like, you have a lot of skills, you know, and I was like, okay, what comes next, you know, when somebody says that, like, you know, something else is coming. And as I said, she was very diplomatic, but she was like, you have a lot of skills, but the skills you have are not helping you right now. 


You know, like, if you’re struggling in your life, it’s great that you have developed all these different talents and things you can do, but it’s clearly it’s not working for you. So therefore, what does that suggest? It suggests that you need to learn some new skills, and you need to unlearn some things perhaps. And so that, you know, was it was definitely a process. 


I mean, obviously, it continues to be but, you know, when you when you at least start dealing with these things in your life, and maybe looking at some stuff for the first time, or at least the first time in a while, or at least in more depth, then you can actually make a lot of progress in a short period of time. So that’s, that’s nice, at least. I could have been sitting in the same therapy chair, Chris.


(21:24 – 21:28)

Sure. But we both made it, right? That’s the thing. We both made it there somehow.


(21:28 – 22:33)

Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. A willingness to try and a willingness to confront and explore and, and change. 


And one of the things I love that you say, throughout all that you have written over the years is, for people considering change, the fear of staying the same has to be greater, it has to arrive at this point where it feels greater than the fear of the change you’re considering making. Yeah, because it’s very easy to just remain kind of stuck, you know, and for the first, maybe, maybe you don’t even think of it as stuck. It’s just like plateaued, like this is, this is the place where you are. 


And there could be someplace so much greater. But unless you’re like pushed, you don’t always necessarily get there. So like, I wrote a book early on called the $100 startup. 


And I told all these different stories of like reinvention of people who like quit their jobs and such. And to, you know, start some entrepreneurial project. And so I started collecting all these stories, and they’re lots of different categories and things.


(22:34 – 27:03)

So I have a lot of stories of people who lost their job, or they were fired, or somehow some great change, they were pushed somehow. And it seemed like it, you know, at the time, it was, it was very scary and discouraging. And they thought this was the worst thing that had ever happened to them. 


And then it ends up, you know, they end up doing something that’s much better and such. So had a lot of those stories. But what I thought was actually more interesting, was people who proactively, you know, like, they weren’t pushed, they really had an okay job, maybe it was even a good job, but they had the desire to do something better. 


And they were like, the good thing is actually holding me back from the great thing, or the whatever the thing is that I want. So I actually have to make proactive, like my relationship is okay, right? You know, most people stay in like, okay, relationships, most people stay in okay jobs. And you can apply this in lots of other, you know, parts of life and such. 


But it’s really interesting to me, the real courage, you know, to use that word is when somebody actually is doing just fine, and nobody’s like pushing them to anything, but they choose, like they feel called, you know, to do something greater, and they make the choice, and whatever change is required in their life to do that. That’s, that’s interesting to me, inspiring. Very interesting. 


And, and so you mentioned good job, good relationship, okay, that kind of language. Like, it’s not always the answer to leave either of those things, because staying and making it better is also an option. Absolutely, of course. 


Yeah. I mean, these are these are things you have to figure out for yourself. You know, this is these are things why that’s why I wouldn’t advise somebody like, here’s what you need to do. 


This is where you’re not the guru. Yeah, exactly. You know, and yeah, so they’re, it’s certainly true that sometimes, you know, you don’t, you also don’t have to be making like great leaps and bounds in every part of your life. 


Sometimes it’s good to like, oh, this is this thing is on track, I can just keep this going, I can work on something else. You know, but other people just like to like start over with everything. It’s just you have to figure out what works for you. 


And so that kind of begs the question, in this world where we are just bombarded by all the blogs and all the media and all the TikTok channels and everyone’s on screens all the time. You see a lot of ideas of what life could look like a lot of examples. And of course, it’s curated often. 


So you’ve got the aspect of is it even real anyway? And does that person ever have a bad day? Guaranteed they do, side note. How does one go about staying true to self in terms of really going inward? And almost, I feel like it has to, this is where semantics can be really useful. Like, where am I feeling this in my body? Oh, yeah, I tense up when when I think about trying to improve that, because actually, it’s telling me I don’t want to be here. 


Like, how do we tap into ourself more? Have you done that? Yeah, I mean, it’s a great question. I feel like it’s a lot of different directions we could take it. I would just say that just because there are so many ideas everywhere, and so many options everywhere, we don’t actually have to pay attention to all of them. 


And, you know, life can be very overwhelming. And there’s a time to like absorb a lot of information. And that can that can be helpful, like when you’re learning about things like you want to go out and like read as many books as possible and like, watch videos and listen to podcasts, however you like to learn and such you go in this like learning phase. 


And that’s a fun phase to be in. But I think it can also kind of prevent us from moving into an action phase, because there’s always more to learn. There’s always more ideas and more options. 


And as I said, it can be quite overwhelming. So I think at a certain point, you kind of take in some things and then you say, Okay, let me just maybe close off, you know, some things I actually don’t need all of these social media, I don’t need to follow all these different things. And I if I’m trying to be a creator, I certainly don’t need to be posting in all these places, because I’m not going to do a good job at that I need to figure out what I’m, you know, called to do or what I choose to do. 


And even if it’s not like a work kind of creation thing, like you’re trying to figure out what to do with your life and such. I think you mentioned somatic, I think anything that we can do to look in, you know, internally, with, you know, some of the tools and resources that we can acquire. I mean, I think that’s where we’re going to find our answers.


(27:03 – 27:29)

Do you have anything specific you do when there are like, you’re tossing up in your life, like a next step? Let’s just say, let’s just say you’re quite interested in a few things at the moment, and your publishers kind of pressing you for one book idea. Like, what’s your process for choosing? This is a common problem. Actually, Alex, I deal with this all the time.


(27:29 – 29:40)

I figured you might. I probably do. I probably do too many things. 


I mean, to be honest, I should probably do, you know, a bit fewer. But I also I’m not the kind of person who’s only going to do one thing. I know that about myself. 


How do I choose? I like to think about seasons. Like, what is that? What is what do I need for this season? I like to think about, I do like books, like books are probably like my number one thing. So I’m like, I have that as an anchor point of like, I know, every like year and a half or so I have a book coming out. 


So there’s a lot that goes into that with like, the writing and the editing, the publishing process. And then like, I do book tour and I but I’m also thinking about the next book. So there’s a whole like built in cycle for that, that I really like. 


That’s also why I like to work with traditional publishers rather than publish everything myself. Just because I don’t want to, there’s a lot of stuff I don’t want to deal with. And I actually like the accountability of like, there’s a calendar and other people are kind of expecting things around this time. 


That’s nice. Because if it’s all my calendar, nothing is ever going to get done. You know, I’m just going to keep deferring it. 


So this is a little bit of roundabout way of answering your question, because it’s something that I think about all the time of like, I don’t, what should I be doing right now? I have like different pages and things on my desk of projects that I’m working on. And I think they’re semi-organized. But, you know, the keyword is semi because like, I’m doing, you know, more than one thing. 


Yeah. And it’s okay to do, is it okay to do more than one thing? Who decides these things, Alex? This brings me up to the gatekeepers, right? There’s like, there’s this, these people and they show up in our lives all the time, different people saying, are you sure you want to do that? Like once or twice a year, I run a business coaching program for people who want to explore like businesses in health, wellness, sustainability, even farming, beekeeping, and like actually make it go of something wonderful for people and planet. And in that, we often, I talk about like, be very careful about who you listen to when you have had this big, courageous swell to do something and explore an idea and really go for it.


(29:40 – 32:24)

The gatekeepers are going to show up and say, sweetheart, like you’ve got two kids. It’s already so busy. Like that might be a gatekeeper or a bank manager telling you, well, I can’t see the future in this kind of idea. 


I’m not going to give you a loan. Lots of them. How do we find the courage to stick to our guns in a world of gatekeepers? I think the gatekeepers sometimes are saying those things. 


And sometimes it’s more like they’re like modeling these things. And, and so. It’s always been said, so this is the time that I say that thing to these. 


Right. So I guess I think you, you need other, other models. Like you have to understand, okay, there are people out there that are going to feel discouraging about whatever my ideas, maybe those people are actually not even the banker. 


It’s more like my mother or something like that. I feel like that’s actually quite common, you know, someone close to my partner, you know, that’s the person who they’re not like a gatekeeper, quote unquote, but they are, they’re not like my cheerleader, you know? So, so what do you do? I mean, you need other models, you need to like find other people online, offline through different, you know, programs and networks and such whether you know them or not, like building relationships is helpful, but even just seeing what other people are doing and seeing, oh, well, this person, they were able to like, they were able to figure this out, you know, and that’s maybe go to go back to the guru conversation. That’s why it’s really helpful to find people who are not necessarily trying to present themselves as the expert on everything. 


And it’s more like there’s somebody who has gone through things and they’re sharing their life experience, but in a way that is not super didactic, you know? So I think for once, you know, if you really believe in your idea, then you have to take steps towards it. Like, even if you can’t see the full kind of completion process, if you can take steps toward it, you know, and asking yourself, like, how will I feel if I don’t, you know, then that to me has always been very powerful as well. It’s been like, if the gatekeepers are one powerful force, you know, like on one of your shoulders, let’s say you have this other force that’s like, yeah, but you have this idea to do this. 


And it’s not just an idea. It’s actually like, this has really been internalized and you can’t stop thinking about this idea. Maybe you even dream about it. 


You know, it’s just like, it’s so much who you are. How will you feel if you don’t do something about it? And you’re like, I’m not going to feel great. But if I, so I need to actually take action on that. 


And I’m not trying to like, make it like negative reinforcement thing. But for me, it’s actually been very positive to think that way. It’s encouraged me to do lots of stuff I wouldn’t have done otherwise.


(32:27 – 34:11)

Yeah. It’s like, I know you’ve talked about this. I know Seth Godin talks about it, like to use the idea of what is the worst that could possibly happen as a strategy for actually leaping forward. 


Yeah. And I mean, most of the time when you ask that question, the answer is like, oh, well, that if the worst that can happen is this idea will not work out, or it won’t be like a success right away, or you’re like, okay, so then I’ll have to do something different. You know, it’s really like, not that the stakes are really low, you know, whereas the stakes of failure, let’s say are low most of the time. 


But the odds or the chance of success or the return is so high. So I talk about asymmetrical ideas sometimes of like, or asymmetrical risk, like what can you do and where the risk is relatively low, but the potential reward is really high. So writing a book is like that, starting a podcast is like that. 


Maybe it won’t work out for whatever reason, but what do you lose if you try? Talking to new people, going to community events, let’s say just these small risks that we can take on a daily basis. And then bigger risks as well that don’t have that much of a downside, I think are worth doing. Totally. 


In tennis, we say you win or you learn. And I really like that in life as well. And winning doesn’t mean like, there’s no actual definition of what that looks like in any given experience, but it’s more to say you either achieve that crazy idea that you had, and it looks like you wanted it to look, or you learned a bunch of stuff along the way that you carry forward anyway.


(34:11 – 34:19)

So either way, even though losing really hurts in tennis. Right. Right. 


Right. I’m sure. But you want to win and that’s okay too.


(34:21 – 37:51)

That’s good. Sometimes I feel like we, not to get off track, but I feel like there’s sometimes a culture of like, you know, you don’t want to win or you don’t want to try, or like, it’s kind of like a, let’s get, let’s give up. Like life is hard. 


Capitalism is hard. So we should give up. And I kind of reject that also, you know, it’s like, why, why would we not want to win at tennis? So why would we not want to, to thrive, you know, in, in whatever, you know, whatever we’re trying to do, why would we not want to challenge ourselves? Like I think challenge is a very healthy value. 


I agree. And I find it to be a very motivating value in my life. And, you know, you often then see quite a sort of spiritual accounts. 


And I feel like I just said that with like a negative connotation. I don’t mean that. But I’ve seen it where it is said that competition is the enemy of growth and unity. 


And I kind of disagree because there’s something really powerful about yardsticks all around us. Sometimes I think, gosh, you know, I really see myself being able to do something like that too. And it’s not about beating that person, but it’s just the fact that someone’s a little more successful at something by your yardstick that makes you think, I think I could do that. 


And that’s incredibly energizing for the human spirit. Yeah. I think it can, I think it’s the kind of thing that can go either way, right. 


It can be very healthy or you can take it to extremes. And I’ve probably done both. You know, I think like the comparison thing can definitely like, you can feel like you’re never successful because there’s always somebody who has whatever the metric is, there’s always someone, you know, with more, whatever it is. 


But, you know, as you said, I think it’s the, it’s not the right answer to just abandon competition altogether. And something I’ve read in one of your books, I genuinely can’t remember which one, I’m sorry, Chris, but is I’ve heard you talk about just having enough, like being really happy with just having enough and having set your life up and made the choices you’ve made to just do life in a way that feels particularly successful to you rather than, you know, our society is caught up in this GDP theory, whirlwind still of infinite growth and more, more, more. And how do you balance that idea of what success looks like in our modern world? Like, why don’t you have a team of, you know, 10 content producers now? And does it like, where do you feel the satisfaction in, in capping growth, I guess? Well, for me, I don’t have 10 people working for me because I’m not a good manager and I have learned that and I don’t want to be a manager. 


You know, I want to be a creative. I want to, to, to write and do what I am somewhat good at or what I enjoy doing. And so the, what is enough thing? I mean, I think that is something that I have, I’ve had to work towards because I have been quite unhappy, you know, always trying to get more, right. 


And pursuing achievement for achievement’s sake, which is not the same as challenge. And I think challenge is good. I think achievement is sometimes good. 


And so when I think about what is enough, I mean, this is something that you decide for yourself. Maybe one point on it is, you know, what you have now in whatever sphere we’re talking about, you don’t have to just look around and say, oh, this is enough. You can say, no, I want more of this in my life, whatever this is.


(37:51 – 37:58)

I want to figure out how to do that. But if you don’t have an answer for what it is, then you, then you will always kind of be on that track of what must be more. It must be more.


(37:58 – 38:30)

You’re going to get something amazing and still like not be satisfied because there’s more. So it’s helpful to say, okay, what would, what would enough look like? You know, what would look like in my life for every different category of my life? And that way, if I have an answer, like a true answer, you know, which will be different for every person, then I know, then I can, you know, if I, if I won the lottery tomorrow, like the biggest lottery but I already had an answer for like how much money I need, then I’m like, okay, great. That’s that need is met.


(38:30 – 43:54)

I can do some other things. But if you don’t have an answer to that, then it’s like, okay, I won this lottery. What, what now, you know? Yeah. 


The, the really taking time to define what enough looks like for yourself. Yeah. I like that. 


And often because we’re caught up in a world of more, we maybe forget that exercise. Do you do it as an annual review as well? Like, is there a seasonal review of, of what enough looks like, or has it always kind of felt like the same? Well, what I’m thinking about specifically, because I realized we like we should go from like big picture to being very practical about this. I’m thinking of like, like daily creative work, like what is enough? Because when we were like doing knowledge work of any kind, like the work has no end, there’s always more you can do, right? Either when yourself, when you’re self-employed, or if you’re at a company and you’re a knowledge worker, there’s always a new project, a new task. 


So you never actually feel this sense of completion, right? You get one thing done and then it’s like, here’s the new, here’s the next thing, you know? I think I just had like a pang just hearing you say that. Right. So you have to, we have to recognize this. 


We have to recognize that there is, there is no end point unless we make an end point. But we can say, okay, you know, I have learned about myself over the years. Maybe I read that get organized book and I learned something, or maybe I, you know, developed my own techniques or whatever it is. 


And I know that there’s a certain amount of creative energy I have. There’s various other factors in my life. I have different constraints, you know, other, other obligations, responsibilities I have, whatever my factors are, here’s what I can do, you know, on a given day. 


And, you know, here’s the amount of work, whether it’s in hours or in some other kind of deliverable or output. And when I do this, I’m going to say, that’s great. And I’m satisfied. 


And maybe I’m feeling really great that day. And I want to do a little bit more. That’s fine. 


But that’s above and beyond. And that’s a bonus, you know, because I know this is the standard I’ve set. And if I write these, this many words, or this many pages, or again, whatever your, your format, your number is, then I have done enough for now. 


And I can do something else, or I can choose to do more, but I’m choosing that, right? I’m not just like, here’s the next thing on the, on the treadmill. So you can apply this in lots of ways, but that’s just a very practical way to think like, how can I decide what is enough? Yeah, so true. And I think that the defining, and this is where granular is actually really helpful rather than big picture thinking. 


I’m so glad you took that practical because often you’ll hear someone say, yeah, so this month I’m going to do my website. Like, well, let me just stop you right there. You are going to end up a very unhappy person at the end of this month, if that is what you’re leading with. 


And how about this morning, you write the points that you’d like to include in your bio, you know, and just really just, ah, let’s just calm ourselves down. And, and look at what enough looks like. I haven’t used that language before, but it sets you up for success. 


That’s awesome. Okay. I’m going to totally, there’s no segue for this. 


I want to talk, I want to talk ADHD, because I hadn’t seen you talk about it before until very recently. And, and then when I, I reflected back on previous content and reading your books, I was like, of course he had ADHD, you know, did you always, did you have a childhood diagnosis or did it come later for you? I did have a childhood diagnosis and I had some medication and such when I was a kid. But it really was just like a couple of years as a kid. 


And this was actually pretty young as a kid. It wasn’t really as a teenager. And so I kind of like, yeah, I forget the age. 


Yeah, I was into all kinds of things as a kid. You know, we talked about the juvenile delinquency a little bit, but, and so I, I kind of knew it because of that, but I didn’t really do much about it as, as an adult. And then I think it was like age 35. 


I was writing a book. It was my third book I was writing and I was really struggling with it. And I was like, oh, this is so difficult. 


And I want to write the book. It’s not like I’m being forced to write the book. This is what I want to do more than anything else. 


And yet I can’t do it. Like I’m, it’s so difficult. And I was like, I need to actually like do something about this. 


And so that’s when I got another diagnosis and started taking medication again for the first time as an adult. And I was like, should have done this a long, long time ago, made my life better. So that’s like the second part of the journey. 


The third part of the journey is though, like, even though I got the adult diagnosis and medication, which was helpful, like I’m still an advocate for that, but I, I didn’t actually really learn much. You know, it was more just like, here’s the healthcare system. Here’s some, some drugs. 


Okay. And so it’s like years later that I start understanding neurodivergence, which we talked about briefly and beginning to like, look at cognitive strategies and understand like, Oh, I do think differently. I have an operating system, you know, that is different from a lot of people, which I should have known. 


I think this is what every ADHD or says at a certain point when they they’re like, Oh, I should have known this because I can think of all these different examples in my life. And, but I didn’t really put the puzzle pieces together. And so the third stage is probably just the past few years of like, let me actually like try to understand this a little bit better.


(43:54 – 47:33)

And I feel like those two things together have been so very helpful to me. So helpful. And I, I couldn’t agree more in terms of the piece of actually learning how to do your brain better because it’s, it’s, we are still diagnosing people and then sending them out into the same world that keeps either saying you are too much because of this, this, this, and this, or you are not enough because of this, this, this, and this. 


And and that can be incredibly damaging to long-term mental health outcomes. If we don’t address the practicality of having a neurodivergent brain and how you can learn to make that work for you, because you absolutely can. And I mean, I know, and the example that you share in one of your books around dropping out of school, however, kind of sweet talking your way into university and, and, and then like completing it in half the time, because you happen to be super interested in a few subjects, even though you practically flunked the ones that you wanted to look out the window on. 


I was like, yeah, I know that feeling. And I remember as a kid, my piano teacher was trying to get me to do the grades and the scales that, you know, the conventional way that you go through piano. But I would say things like, I love this piece of music and I have to learn how to play it. 


And I would just be obsessed and want to practice her hours. And she cottoned onto it. And then she was an elderly woman, but she just was like, hold on, if I keep trying to make her do it this way, and this was way, I mean, I didn’t get diagnosed until a couple of years ago. 


But she was the first person in retrospect, after my diagnosis that I thought of as these lighthouses that you can have in your life that say, hold on, you like to learn that way. Okay. I’m going to help you learn that way. 


I’m so glad you had that experience. That’s a wonderful experience. It’s helped you for years to, you know, helped you with far more than piano, right. 


Cause it’s helping, you know, it’s like a model for you. And I think a lot of people don’t get that, Miss Gillis. And, and I just was fortunate before I even knew about labels or anything to know that if someone just sees that you can fly a certain way to let you fly. 


And and it’s fascinating to me. And I think why often neurodivergent people don’t end up in corporate structures because it’s not a, it’s not a framework for allowing people to fly the way they fly very often. I mean, there are some new tech companies, I guess, that are a bit more disruptive, a bit more flexy. 


But it still fascinates me that we have these systems in place where you have your KPIs and you will be managed and performance managed on the 10% of your job that you’re not doing great. Even if the other 90% is perfectly fine, if not great, it blows my mind that we can be so short-sighted about people. Yeah. 


I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of things in the corporate world that are short-sighted, but I’ve tried to avoid it my whole life. So I would never, I would never defend that. Yeah. 


Okay. And so when you look back retrospectively, what would you have loved to have had as a kid with ADHD that you didn’t? Wow. That’s a great question.


(47:35 – 51:07)

I have to think about that for a moment. What would I have loved to have had? I had my piano teacher. Yeah, that’s right. 


No, I’m sure there were people like that in my life. Like I’m not always so good with names. I can’t be like, this was the person who, you know, but I know that there were people who looked out for me. 


There were some teachers, there were some role models, you know, different people at church or some program or something somewhere that cared about me. And, um, you know, in some ways I’m probably here now because of them. It’s I had a really rough few years and such as a kid. 


So I am really grateful for that. I don’t know what else I would have, would have liked. I mean, I was going to say like some kind of more education or something, but that’s probably cause like when I’m a kid, I don’t, you know, kids don’t want education. 


Right. So I feel like adults don’t want education, right. We want transformation. 


So I don’t actually know what it would be. Uh, I think it’s a, it’s an interesting question because, uh, a lot of parents now with kids with ADHD, you know, you can often find yourself like quipping, Oh, come on, just get your shoes on or just little tiny things that chip away at confidence. Like, well, that brain is thinking about how cool it’d be if that character in that movie had actually gone this way. 


I remember my diagnosis a couple of years ago. I have to tell this story because it is just so funny. So excellent. 


I’m having the, the, the cognitive assessment where you you’re doing your IQ kind of part of it all. And, um, he says, okay, now I’m going to tell you a short story. I just want you to listen to the story and then repeat it back. 


It’s like my worst nightmare. Okay. I had, I had aced like all the different positions, the different squares in their clusters needed to be the memory of numbers and grouping them into songs in my mind. 


Like all that was fine, but this I was like, okay, I’m really listening. And the first sentence is, so the monkey gets into the car and starts driving. And I don’t know what happened after that, but this monkey for me was wearing a cute little tweed hat and he was in a little jacket. 


And then I started wondering how his feet were going to be touching the pedals. And then I was like, Oh, you know, they probably had some kind of adjustment buttons or something, or something. And so I’m like drifting into this whole story. 


And he’s like, now just repeat the story back. And I said, so the monkey gets into the car and starts driving. And he’s like, and do you have anything else? And I said, no, but I can tell you what he was right. 


And how he was able to solve these problems. Yeah. And I think it’s just that it’s the one section I really bombed out on. 


And so he was like, our work here is done. I know our work here is done. Diagnosis came the next day. 


And proud to admit that my IQ is excellent. It was just one little bombed out section. And I think, you know, it kind of comes back to that JD, like, are you failing at 10%? And are we all focusing on that? Or like, where are things good for you? How would you advise? And I know you’re not a guru, Chris, but there are a lot of young people and a lot of adults with late diagnoses who have been told that they’re too much, not enough.


(51:08 – 53:45)

Suck at all these things. Why can’t you just remember? Why can’t you just focus? I mean, we’ve heard the broken records. So for someone who’s finding it hard, for someone who’s just feeling like, whoa, like this is, I get chipped away at a lot. 


How does one begin to navigate a new story there? Yeah, that’s a great question. I’m still thinking about the previous one as well. So this kind of ties in together about what do people need? And I guess what I would say to that person is, you know, the wrong answer is to try to conform. 


And the wrong answer is to try to adapt. That’s what people want you to do, right? That’s what they’re always encouraging you to do because you’re too much this or not enough that, as you said. And so you’re never really going to be happy if you’re trying to fit into their puzzle. 


But there is a way for you to be happy and actually fulfilled and to thrive and do something that you’re good at, which can also feel really good once you figure out how to work and how to live in a way that’s best suited for you. So I would say the wrong answer is to conform. And the right thing is just to kind of keep leaning into this, even if it’s uncomfortable, like leaning into this idea that there’s something else for you out there. 


And there’s a different way that you think, but if you learn to apply this, it’s going to be so much better than everybody else who’s like learning to apply their way of doing things to the world’s way of doing things. There’s a lot of people who do that. There’s enough people out there who do that. 


There’s no shortage of them, but there is a shortage of creative individuals who are looking at the world in their own way and coming up with something new or different or just doing something that makes them come alive because that’s actually going to help other people as well. We talked about models earlier and you’re going to be a model to other people who are coming up after you and are also feeling discouraged and kind of downtrodden, but they’re going to be like, Oh, look at this person. Wow. 


They, they were really struggling and they were being told that they weren’t enough or they were too much, but somehow they were able to make a change and go on. And that’s, that’s really cool. Maybe there’s something that I can do. 


So I would say like, like, just don’t try to opt out of all of like this feeling, like lean into it. And like, for me, I wouldn’t, like, I don’t regret anything about ADHD or like, I wouldn’t trade it. You know, like I am very happy with like who I’ve become, especially as I’ve learned, like how I can do, how I can, how I can work, you know, in a way that’s optimal for me and such.


(53:45 – 54:12)

So it takes time, but I would say just, you know, it’s, it’s okay. You’re not alone. Not alone. 


And does, do you, Chris, have a day every now and then where you’re like, I just find myself looking out the window all the time today. I’m going to change this up. Twice a week, twice a week, probably all the time. 


Yeah, me. Yeah, that was yesterday for me. My family has these sweets and sours that we do at the dinner table, like one sour, three sweets.


(54:13 – 58:12)

And we just share about our day. And I, I shared, my sour is that my brain just did not want to be with me today. It wanted to be looking out at the ocean. 


And so I took myself and my dog for a big walk. So that’s the sweet that you actually did something in response to that. Yes. 


Right. Very good. Instead of most people would have just been sour. 


Yes. Great job, Alex. Nice. 


Well, well, that was very worth our time. Wasn’t it? I feel like I had a therapy session just then. Fantastic. 


Chris, do you, as an author, having written several books, have a favorite, do you have a favorite baby? Oh, I mean, I, I really like writing books. I don’t have a favorite. Like different books for different reasons. 


I do. Okay, I will say one. I wrote a book called The Money Tree. 


And that was my first fiction. And it’s all my other books are nonfiction. And so I wanted to teach something, but I wanted to do it in this fictionalized setting. 


And I really, really enjoyed the process of writing that book. That book came out in April 2020. Great time to have a book out. 


The whole world shut down. I couldn’t go on book tour. I was supposed to go to 40 cities and I went to zero cities. 


So it’s a little bit difficult. Yeah. I had a COVID book as well. 


Yeah. Oh, great. Congratulations. 


Yeah. Well, maybe one day someone will read our books, because that was a hard time to get books out. But anyway, that’s my, maybe that’s my small favorite. 


Hmm. Well, I love that that’s actually come up because it’s a fiction book. And how is that different for you from writing facts and exploring knowledge? I mean, in some ways, it was different. 


In some ways, it was similar. It was different because, you know, with nonfiction, I can’t just make things up. I mean, I can make them up, but I have to then support them in some way. 


And like, you know, really need to develop that process. But it’s a somewhat linear process. You know, whereas with fiction, it’s like, this is my story in my world, and I’m creating it. 


I never actually wanted to write fiction. I just I didn’t understand how it worked. I was like, I don’t know how somebody like has an idea and then develops these characters. 


And where does the dialogue come from? And how do you do that? You know, I didn’t get it. But then I just kind of had an idea. Like, it’s one of those ideas that didn’t leave me alone. 


And so I just kind of followed it. And I’m really glad I did. I’d like to do it again sometime, but we’ll see. 


Nice. I’ll be reading it. I’m excited. 


I don’t usually read fiction, but you piqued my interest because you said you wanted to teach, but in a fiction setting, and I think it is one of the most powerful ways to teach, especially on topics that people find difficult to learn about in in like fact based nonfiction. Can I ask you an existential question that I haven’t even planned for as our as our final exploration, and it is nonconformity, right? We sign up, we drink the Kool-Aid, we take a look at what that’s going to look like for us, and we just go for it. Do you ever think about and it could just be just be me. 


I’m really going out on a limb here. But I sometimes map out what it would look like for all these people to become unconventional. And then like what happens to all the what happens to the world if we’re all nonconformist? Like you kind of blow up pretty quickly in terms of ad revenue. 


Like, you know, if everybody left a major food corporation, that’s a whole building’s worth of people who, I don’t know, who are doing great things, which is great. The world as we know it kind of changes. But don’t we want the world as we know it to change as well? Yeah, it’s tricky, right? Because it’s like, it’s a fun thought exercise.


(58:12 – 1:01:31)

But it’s, it’s like, is that going to happen? You know, like, not to be a downer on it, but it’s kind of like about peace or conflict, I wouldn’t be great if there was no conflict in the world. And like the world was full of peace, there was no war, then we could like dismantle, you know, the defense industry, and all that. I’m like, Okay, well, you know, we look at the world that we live in, we can’t change, there’s a lot of things that we can’t change. 


That’s where I’m coming to, we can’t change a lot of things about the world that we live in. But there is there are things that we can have, we have control. And we have the number one thing we have control over is ourselves, right, our autonomy and what we choose to do. 


And so I think the more the better, right, the more people who choose to live an unconventional life, whatever that looks like, you know, for them, we do have control over ourselves, that is our number one space of agency. Someone feels a little braver at the end of this conversation, then at the start, bit more excited about exploring a new idea. What are you telling them this next week could look like as they unpack what that might look like for them? Well, I really like what you said about the website about how, you know, step one is not built the website. 


So whatever their ideas, I love the unpacking of the idea, what does this idea look like? You know, what what will this look idea look like? In its final form? What is the step before that? What is the step tomorrow? What are all the steps in between? I do like thinking that way. I think it’s very helpful. Just because, you know, it allows us to take something that’s, that’s kind of big, and then break it down into like, here’s what I need to do now. 


So I guess I would just encourage people to do that. But maybe, you know, maybe don’t go to it too quickly. Like, it’s always good to first, like, let me have the idea. 


And let me just sit with the idea and the dream and make sure I’ve really captured it. And then I’ll kind of go to like getting to work on it. But I just encourage people to encourage people to take next steps, to ask themselves, what’s next? That’s always a great question. 


It’s one of my favorite questions, like, what’s next? What’s next? Because you can think about it in your, in your, your project that you’re working on, you can think about it in your like, goal for your career, you can think about it for your health and wellness, you know, all every every part of your life, what’s next? What’s next is way less scary than end games goals too. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Chris. I’d love to have you Alex. 


Thank you. It was a pleasure. I hope you loved today’s show as much as I loved bringing it to you. 


I want to remind you that if you are someone who craves a community that is judgment-free, full of empowerment, has health professionals and building health professionals that can support you as well as me in there answering questions multiple times a week, I want to invite you to join the LOW TOX club for the price of less than a cup of coffee a month. You have an annual membership for $49 Australian. So it’s about $30 US or Euro that allows you to have a member masterclass every single month with a health professional or global expert from the podcast where we have them to ourselves for an hour to ask questions and deep dive further. 


You have the beautiful supportive chat group. You have Q and A’s with me, me answering questions. We read books and talk about them and a whole bunch more.


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You can head to LOW, hit the explore tab and join the club is the very first option on that list. Of course, we have over 10 evergreen courses that you can jump into anytime, whether it’s navigating everyday LOW TOX swaps with our Go LOW TOX signature course, whether you have kids and you’re wanting to know how to best support them with our LOW TOX kids course, whether you’re planning a family and looking at a healthy LOW TOX preconception journey, reducing inflammation, especially the chronic kind without inflammation ninja course, many, many other courses you can again, head to LOW, hit the courses tab and you’ll see all of the options, which includes a business course, my LOW TOX method program. A lot of people don’t know, but I was doing a lot before starting LOW TOX Life in 2009 and I was a business consultant across hospitality, health, retail and cosmetics. 


I have been in business consulting for a very long time. So I absolutely adore helping people move into the LOW TOX space or develop their LOW TOX businesses. So that’s a way I can support you. 


And then of course, there’s our wonderful social media communities at LOW TOX Life on Instagram. And of course the website with over 250 gluten free recipes, blogs, downloadable PDFs to help you navigate wanting to get rid of synthetic fragrances in your school or office. I could go on. 


So head to LOW, see what takes your interest or fancy. And thank you so much for being a part of our podcast community. I love, love, love reading your reviews. 


I appreciate every follow and subscribe. And I want to just remind you to finish off that if there’s anything you heard that you found interesting from medical or scientific perspective, it is intended as education only. Please always chat to a health professional who knows you and your situation best.


(1:03:30 – 1:03:32)

I’ll see you next week. Bye.




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