Show #378 Stop trying to ‘control’ your emotions, and here’s why… with Cedric Bertelli

                 

About this show:

This show is all about emotions. As Cedric Bertelli, founder of the Emotional Health Institute, explains, our culture is obsessed with trying to control our emotions. It turns out however, it is this desire to control our emotions that inadvertently prevents many of us from developing emotional resilience. So, in this show, we unpack: 

  • How our responses to situations are often formed from events a long time in our past
  • Why emotions don’t make sense and trying to make them make sense is futile
  • What happens in our conscious and subconscious at a point of trauma and how can it form long-term imprints? 
  • How phobias can be overcome – and it’s not about ‘overcoming’ them. 
  • How we can break life-long emotional patterns that things like talk therapy haven’t helped us resolve?

It is a fascinating exploration of memories, trauma and emotions, and how we can break unhelpful loops we might be stuck in, and I hope you or someone you know finds it to be as interesting and helpful as I did. 

Questions I asked Cedric:

  • What got you fascinated by emotions and their impact on our overall wellbeing? 
  • How are emotions made?
  • Why emotions do not make sense? And based on your answer perhaps: So why do we attach so much importance to them as fact and reality?
  • Talk therapy can be so beneficial especially when someone hasn’t felt seen, heard or safe to share their experience with someone free from judgement and shame… but, it seems so many keep proving that it’s not enough – what was your realisation of this personally/professionally?
  • You talk about how learned Emotional Regulation is detrimental to Emotional Resilience – can you elaborate on that? 
  • What is a Trauma? It is now all of a sudden talked about a lot – I feel like the floodgates of the internet have opened up on this topic: 
  • A lot of times when we’re in the thick of debilitating emotional patterns it seems there’s no way to break them… what are they? Can you share an example of one of your own maybe or a client or two and then talk about going about breaking free from them…
  • As parents are our behaviours toward our kids more based or care or control? Ouch – this one sounds like a tough learning to examine – let’s go through examples to bring this to life – a kid wants to quite an activity they keep insisting they don’t like/aren’t good at and it’s making them sad and frustrated… or something you want to share as a common one that comes up… 
  • What is EmRes® (Emotional Resolution)?

Connect with Cedric on the following platforms;

Websites — www.cedricbertelli.com; www.emotionalhealthinstitute.org 

Instagram — @cedricbertelli and @emotionalresolution

Facebook — @EmotionalResolutionWithCedric and @theemotionalresolutioneffect 

 

Thank you to this month’s show sponsor for helping you make your low tox swaps easier: 

@ausclimate continues giving 10% off their Winix Air Purifiers and Dehumidifiers. Use CODE: LOWTOXLIFE at checkout www.ausclimate.com.au

 

Alexx Stuart

Founder of Low Tox Life and the Low Tox movement

Join me on Insta @lowtoxlife

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About Cedric Bertelli:

 

 

Cedric Bertelli is a recognised expert in Emotional Resolution® (EmRes®), a revolutionary approach to emotional healing that has transformed the lives of countless individuals. As the Founder and Director of the Emotional Health Institute (EHI), Cedric has dedicated his career to helping people overcome stress, anxiety, depression, PTSD, and other negative emotions using powerful tools and techniques.

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Title show track, by LIOR.

Love the podcast music? You will hear excerpts from Lior’s track “Caught Up”  – go check it out on iTunes or Spotify if you want to hear the whole song or album, Scattered Reflections. Co-written with Cameron Deyell, it’s a great song and I love the reflective energy of it – perfect for the show, right? Enjoy. Lior is always touring, so do check out his website. It is wonderful to hear him sing live, trust me.

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If you would love reading like me or you just simply want to go through the full transcript, you can check below.

(0:00 – 2:44)

Do you sometimes find it hard to control your emotions? Today’s guest is telling us, stop trying to do that. That is today’s show and it is fascinating. Hello, and welcome to the Low Tox Life podcast.

 

I’m Alexx Stewart, your host and founder of the we are doing a show on emotional control, how prevalent it is in many cultures around the world, how we’re always trying to suppress our emotions, control them, put them away, and how that is all actually preventing emotional resilience. Cedric Bertelli is our guest today. You may have heard from my accent that I have a French background as well.

 

As today’s show guest, Cedric grew up in the south of France, moved to America as a chef for the Ritz-Carlton group and overseeing thousands of staff and had a bit of a moment, went on a huge journey himself. While I don’t often interview people who aren’t health professionals with decades of experience and expertise and PhDs on certain subjects, when I came across the work Cedric was doing, dove into the research and the way he has put a framework together for people to become emotionally resilient, I knew I had to have him on the show. He is the founder of the Emotional Health Institute.

 

He explains that our culture is obsessed with trying to control our emotions, but it turns out, of course, however, as I said, controlling our emotions inadvertently prevents us from developing emotional resilience. So in this show, we are unpacking things like how our responses to situations are often formed. And this is really just an amazing aha.

 

They’re often formed from things that happen in our past that we aren’t even aware of. Mind blown when that landed for me. Why emotions don’t make sense and trying to make them make sense is futile.

 

(2:44 – 3:06)

So good. And the examples in this chat, so good. What happens in our subconscious and conscious mind at a point of trauma and how it can form long-term imprints, but also how we can start to move through and beyond those imprints into emotional resilience.

 

(3:06 – 3:34)

You know, you might like have that experience where something triggers you and you’re like, why did that trigger me actually? Because it’s, it’s really no big deal. Or that person has nothing to do with me or, you know, why would I be so sensitive to something like that when it’s not going to impact my life? I mean, we all have these frustrating and unproductive moments. And today in this show, we are talking about all of those, what we can do, what it looks like.

 

(3:34 – 5:17)

And what I love is realizing how much we try to do when we experience emotions. So I’m going to hook into that in a little minute and it will all make a ton of sense in about 45 minutes time. I know this community is going to love this show.

 

And of course we still have all year round 2024 for the Aussies, 10% off the often already discounted, uh, stay with me on Instagram, by the way, at low tox life. If you want to keep a watch, cause I always post it there. Prices for dehumidifiers and air filters, the purifiers from the Winix range from ausclimate.com.au. Your code is low tox life.

 

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So low tox life is your code for 10% off. And that 10% applies to anything they might also have on sale. Now, enjoy this podcast with Cedric Bertelli unpacking our emotions and starting the journey towards greater emotional resilience.

 

(5:17 – 11:45)

Hello, Cedric. How are you? Hello, Alexx. I’m doing good.

 

How are you? Good. I’m good. And I, I, I confess we’ve actually just been chatting in French for 10 minutes, uh, which is always great to get the opportunity to do so.

 

And, uh, I guess my first question, which actually wasn’t on the list, but now that we’ve been chatting in French and I know you are born in the South of France, how does one end up in California? What’s your story? So I ended up in California for my work, my previous work. I used to be a chef and, uh, my first job, uh, in the U S was for the Ritz-Carlton in Half Moon Bay, which is a small town, uh, close to San Francisco. And when I came, I, I started in the kitchen and became in love with, uh, uh, the Bay area, uh, the Pacific ocean.

 

It broke my word, my word. And so I did what I had to do to continue, which was going up in, uh, in, uh, incorporate and, uh, and with the Ritz-Carlton and, uh, finally when I was able to get a green card. And was that process of, you know, hustling and trying to get promoted and getting the green card, was this where you became fascinated with emotions and maybe fell to some difficult moments yourself that you had to navigate through? Um, yes and no, definitely, definitely, uh, working at the Ritz and especially when I was a banquet manager or director of restaurants.

 

So when I had a lot of people to manage, so to speak, that really was the last drop that made me change career. Because when you, uh, when you manage people, you realize that you don’t manage people. That’s not true.

 

You manage emotions. You have to, you have to, to have a good understanding and comprehension of how people function in order to, well, build team to make them work in specific function with specific people, the way that you talk to them. So you constantly manage emotions.

 

So you don’t manage people, you manage emotions constantly in a way. Makes sense. Because people live so much for their emotions.

 

And to answer your question a bit further, uh, stuff from my life also, of course, uh, um, brought me to what I do now. I, very early on as a kid, four, five, six, I was having a, what you call in, uh, in French, uh, uh, crise d’anxiété, anxiety crisis. There was a lot of anger and, and, and later on, I, of course, I learned to control it, control my anxiety, control my anger.

 

When I say self-directed, it wasn’t angry at others. Um, I learned to control, but up until I shifted completely and, and, uh, got really interested in emotional functioning. So it was, it was controlling of my own stuff and constantly controlling our anxiety, constantly controlling our anger.

 

It’s not healthy because it’s the inside. Yeah. So I was going to ask you about that.

 

What is the difference between controlling and like managing? Like what’s the healthy distinction? Yeah. You know, it’s a great question. Very early on in our life, we try to teach our children, our students, you know, emotional regulation.

 

So we try to teach them how to control the emotion, how to feel better, how to abate the emotion fast. Uh, this is emotional regulation, emotional control. We develop through the years, uh, uh, an amazing battery of coping mechanisms, but these coping mechanisms are detrimental to emotional resilience because every time we control an emotion, every time we cope with an emotion, we are maintaining the loop of this emotion, this anxiety, this anger, whatever it is that we’re controlling, we’ll keep on coming.

 

Interesting. That’s why often I say emotional regulation is detrimental to emotional peace. Wow.

 

Okay. So there’s a lot to unpack in this next little 45 minutes we’ve got here. So, uh, let’s, uh, let’s talk about how emotions are made then where are they coming from? And, uh, and I think that might then lead us on this journey to unpacking these initial statements, which, you know, for someone who hasn’t thought about this or who’s been struggling for a while, uh, might be thinking, what explain, let’s start with how they made.

 

I think it’s important to understand our debilitating emotions are made because you allow us to demystify emotions, right? This emotion, emotions, the word of emotion is, is very Freudian still or more mystical, right? But let’s, let’s look at how emotions are made, debilitating emotions, I mean, anxiety, et cetera. Well, we know a few things about emotions nowadays neurobiologically. Um, number one, one or the first job of our subconscious brain is to predict our subconscious mind constantly predict based on past situations.

 

We can see that with food. For example, if you have one apple, the first apple of your life, you have a sensorial experience. And every time after that, every time you will take another apple before biting the apple, you will predict what experience you’re about to have.

 

We constantly predict based on past reactions. So we stay ahead of the time ahead of the game, so to speak. That’s number one.

 

Number two, what you and I, we are aware of right now consciously is about 2000 bits of information per second. So that’s what we are aware of. And our cognitive mind, so to speak, process those information at a speed of about a hundred to 150 miles per hour.

 

It’s pretty good already. But now in the same time, our subconscious mind process or can process up to 400 billion bits of information per second, 400 billion at a speed of 150,000 miles per hour. I mean, wow, amazing.

 

(11:46 – 12:18)

It’s not understandable. It’s not understandable to give you an idea. The cognitive could be like a marble, our awareness, cognitive awareness, and the subconscious processing power is like the Mount Everest.

 

That’s the scale that we’re talking about. So it’s not really understandable cognitively, the difference. So that’s important to know because one of the main job of the cognitive mind, the cognitive brain, the prefrontal cortex is to filter information.

 

(12:18 – 13:31)

If we were bombarded by 400 billion bits of information per second, we would not be able to have this conversation. The prefrontal cortex filter this information. Okay.

 

That’s interesting. Now, what we know as well is that at the origin of every debilitating pattern, emotional pattern is always the same type of event. For us to have a disruptive emotional pattern at the origin is an instant of trauma.

 

So what is trauma? A trauma is an instant that holds too much stress, emotional or physical for us to take on at the instant when we live it. That’s it. That’s what trauma is.

 

I’m going to repeat that because I think it’s important. A trauma is an instant that holds too much physical or emotional stress for us to take on at the instant when we live it. So something that my daughter was three would experience as a trauma for me was 43 is nothing.

 

(13:33 – 15:22)

So it really depends on where we are in life, our environment, and many other factors. But we do know that at the origin, at the root of all of our debilitating pattern is an instant of trauma. And what is happening during the trauma? Why is that at the root? Well, because when we experience a trauma, our cognitive shutdown is called, it is called dissociation.

 

The cognitive shutdown so we don’t suffer too much. It’s a protective mechanism. It’s a protective mechanism.

 

Now when the cognitive shutdown, the subconscious takes over. It never stopped. The subconscious is like the black box of a plane.

 

So when the cognitive shutdown, the subconscious open up. Imagine a huge vortex that can gather 400 billion bits of information per second at a speed of 150,000 miles per hour. So when we dissociate, we’re having this huge vortex gathering all this information present during this trauma.

 

Now this information is purely sensorial. It’s what you smell, what you see, what you feel on your skin is purely sensorial. And the subconscious is also going to record the physical sensations present in your body during this instant of trauma.

 

It’s very important, right? It’s like the vortex open inside and out and gather all this information in a non-logical, non-linear way. And as soon as the dissociation is finished, boom, this is, this is, this come back to normal, so to speak, the subconscious is filtered again. And so this has acted like an imprint of thoughts.

 

(15:22 – 18:01)

That’s right. Now let’s go a bit further. When later on, maybe months, maybe years, maybe decades after a specific instant of trauma, the body is exposed to one or several elements that were present during a specific trauma.

 

Your brain, your body is going to instantly predict what physical sensations you’re about to feel exactly like for the apple earlier. Your brain is going to predict what physical sensations you’re about to feel. And just like for the apple, you are going to feel those physical sensations.

 

Those physical sensations, we call that interoception or somatic markers. Interoception is what let us know that we feel an emotion. It’s also what let us know that we’re hungry, thirsty, horny, all this, but it’s also what let us know that we feel anxious, sad, depressed.

 

It’s all physical. It’s interoception. Well, those physical sensation that we feel when we have an emotion, where the exact same sensation that were felt in our body during a specific event, instant of trauma.

 

To go back to what we were talking about earlier, when we feel the sensations in us of anxiety, we’re trying to control them. We breathe, we talk ourselves through it. We try to control the environment that might create these sensations.

 

We always stop the prediction. So the key to resolve an emotion, the key to resolve an emotion is to let the prediction plays out until the end without any type of control. Just let it, let it in, let it through, let it out kind of thing.

 

And so are we doing that to actually have the realization that nothing bad happened? That’s absolutely correct. It’s as simple as that. Emotional resolution, which is what we do at MRes, is all about updating outdated predictions from the brain.

 

Because at the end of the prediction, at the end of the interoceptive prediction, the brain is expecting to be hit with some kind of danger. But the truth of the matter is most of the anxiety or debilitating emotion that we feel are not congruent with our current reality. Just as reaction, the reaction from past events.

 

(18:02 – 18:58)

So at the end of the prediction, nothing happens. We’re safe and sound. From that very instant, the prediction will be updated.

 

What used to create this anxiety, what used to create this feeling, will not create it anymore. Wow. And so I feel like we need to draw a duty of care line here around, obviously, there will be people who are anxious, who are about to experience something awful.

 

Or, you know, like, how do we make sure what we’re talking about here is heard by people who are having unproductive patterns that are holding them back in an otherwise safe life versus people who are actually living in risky times, wherever they might be in life? Exactly what you said. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly what you said.

 

(18:58 – 20:22)

The pattern. Is it a pattern that they feel anxious? Is the pattern that they feel fearful about something, that they feel frustrated about something, that they feel angry about something? Is it a long lasting pattern? Unproductive things that just always seem to be coming up and then sabotaging you, creating a negativity where it doesn’t need to be kind of thing. That’s right.

 

Yeah, absolutely. And to jump because that’s a very good point that you get here. You know, people say when there is danger, we feel fear.

 

Yes, yes, sure. We feel fear. But you will notice that when there is actual danger, more than fear often is an hyper awareness that comes to us.

 

Right. When we work, when we’re in a situation that is dangerous, fear will create like, yeah, if there is a root for fear, a fear will come up. But very often when it’s dangerous, it’s there is a hyper sensoriality of what’s going on around us.

 

Yeah, a hyper vigilance. It’s just you take everything in to be safe. This will never go away.

 

This will never go away. We shouldn’t at least. Yeah.

 

But what we don’t want is for that to play out in otherwise safe situations. Correct. Correct.

 

(20:23 – 20:35)

So, for example, let’s say I walk on a bus and in front of me there is a snake. If I’m not afraid of snake, I’m going to have a reaction. I’m going to be aware of my surrounding.

 

(20:35 – 24:09)

I’m going to have a reaction and I’m going to think, how can I go through the snake without being beaten, without disturbing it, staying safe? If I don’t have any fear related to snake, I’ll be able to do that without any problem. Now, if I see a snake and have a fear reaction of snake, chances are I’m going to do something stupid or I’m going to back off and not continue. Yeah.

 

Wow. That’s such a great illustration around phobias and things. And what emotions are happening when we are experiencing phobias, given you’ve brought one up? Because they’re so unproductive.

 

I have a fear of this huge spider that we have that’s very fast here in Australia called a huntsman and they just paralyze me. How do I get to being the rational snake person who just knows how to avoid them? You really have to feel your phobia. You have to feel the sensations present in your body.

 

Now, you don’t want to do it close to the spider, right? Because if you do it close to the spider, chances are your body is not going to feel safe enough. So if you see a spider, for example, you would have to, okay, see the spider, feel the sensations of fear and then maybe close the door or go somewhere else and then feel the sensation that you feel in your body. And very pragmatically, if you want to be practical, you’re going to have to feel at least two sensations simultaneously.

 

So you’re going to feel two or three sensations simultaneously, not only one, two or three. And the sensations you’re going to feel are not going to stay static. They’re going to start moving.

 

That’s the interoceptive prediction playing out in you. You just have to feel them, not becoming passive, not distracting yourself. No, no.

 

Feel what’s happening inside of you as the sensations change until the sensations abate by themselves without your help. And then come out and look at the spider again and see if you feel different. You will.

 

Wow. I’m totally trying that. It’s the season for them.

 

So I’m absolutely trying that. It’s not magical. It’s not magical.

 

And I know it sounds simple. Well, ask someone to do nothing. Ask someone to feel their fear without screaming, without breathing into it.

 

No, the most difficult is to be able to, one, accept our fears, accept to feel the fear in our body without trying to control it or ease it whatsoever. The fear by itself will never last longer than 90 seconds. Yes.

 

Between three and 90 seconds. But 90 seconds can feel very long. If it’s a big feeling, absolutely.

 

And so then we think about different ways that we’ve dealt with hard situations clinically in the past, therapies that people might know of. You go to see your psychologist, you lie down or you sit there and you have a big talk about the bad things and the, I’m always feeling anxious. Why, why do we like, I don’t think it’s an accident why a lot of people like yourself and others are working to develop different ways to create lasting results for people that don’t involve going back and sitting in a chair week after week and talking.

 

(24:09 – 29:08)

Why is the talking not necessarily the only or whole part of a psychological healing picture? When it comes to big emotions? It’s a good question. First of all, speech therapy or talk therapy, sorry, can be very useful to understand our pattern, to even being ready to approach a pattern. But talking about a problematic, an issue or trauma will never resolve, will never heal really the wounds of this trauma or will never really relieve, release the pain that the person is suffering because we stay in the cognitive, the emotional roots or in the subconscious.

 

Trying to resolve an emotional difficulty just by talking is like trying to talk Chinese to a French person. They don’t talk to each other. And very often we are able to create bridges, cognitive bridge, intellectual bridge.

 

Oh, I feel this way right now in my life because of what happened in my childhood with my parents, for example. Sometimes it’s right. Sometimes it’s completely wrong.

 

They make us feel better as human being to know, to have a solution, an answer, but it doesn’t disrupt the emotional pattern. I’m not at all. I see exactly where you’re going with this.

 

And so can I ask you a very personal question? The man we met at the start of this conversation is managing banquets at the Ritz Carlton. The man we’re talking to now is walking us through interoception and emotions. What’s the bridge for you on a personal level into opening up into this world? Why? My grandfather, my grandfather was a bridge.

 

My grandfather passed away a couple of months ago now. He was 101 almost. Oh, wow.

 

Lucky you. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Yeah. My grandfather was a resistant during World War II. And I always was fascinated how him and a lot of people from his generation were the power for resilience after World War II.

 

They came and lived the worst and they were able, of course, we can talk with, but I think in a much better way able to come out of this trauma than current soldier, for example, or people that live through trauma. The level of resilience for these people of this generation is baffling, at least for my grandfather. And I always wonder, how does that work? How can somebody go through so much suffering and then being a standard man, a man that knew what was his position, never tried to be somebody else, never tried to be less than we was.

 

And as I studied all that, as I became interested in that, for me, it’s clear. It’s when they were done with the war, most of the men went to work in nature, outside. Among all the men who had a similar experience, they never talked about it between them.

 

Sometimes old guys were coming to my grandfather and they were just saying something like, do you remember? Yes, but nothing else. But this experience of common history, being in nature, among people who lived the same story, the same history, and a purpose, having to have a family and provide all this natural resilience. And what do you do when you’re in the wood, in your cross, or in a vineyard, or even in a factory? When you’re crossed by an emotion, what do you do? Nothing.

 

You’re just with it. You don’t go to Tony Robbins, but you don’t go to Tony Robbins, you know, workshop to try and be reborn. And yes, I see what you’re saying.

 

Yeah. Which in a way can be escapist. Yes, absolutely.

 

Because you’re looking externally for the answer. That’s right. It can be addictive too.

 

So you keep on coming back and coming back, coming back. No, no, no. I knew for a fact that there is something in every single one of us that allow this emotional resolution, this emotional resilience that would allow us to go back to a state that is similar than we had before any trauma.

 

(29:11 – 29:38)

So that’s how I became interested in how emotions are made and what’s happening in the body. And how can we tap into this natural capacity for emotional resilience, for emotional resolution? We can all do that. We can all do that.

 

It’s a natural capacity. Every mammals have it. You know, we work with cows and horses to understand how other mammals deal with fears.

 

(29:39 – 32:01)

Yeah. Like trauma release exercises and shaking it out. And that’s right.

 

The only mammals that hold on to trauma, trauma are us, domestic animals, and some farm animals. Why? Because we control them. We control our domestic animals.

 

We control some of our farm animals. So we do not let this regular process. What is, you know, you know about the story of like, you know, the impala being chased by a lion.

 

And then when they go back to a quiet environment, a safe environment, the body shakes. We don’t do that. Either way, because we didn’t have an opportunity because trauma happened very early and actually our environment wasn’t safe enough for us to go back to a natural state of homeostasis.

 

Or because we learn very early on to control what we don’t feel well. And then being exposed to a safe environment, it’s almost too late because we controlled already what we felt. So the body doesn’t have time to update the prediction, to integrate the prediction that was just created.

 

Wow. Who did you train with to get to then creating your own system? Because that must’ve been a pretty powerful journey yourself. Were you noticing unproductive patterns in yourself that you wanted to dismantle and you were on that journey? Constantly.

 

I mean, I was a very anxious guy. I was a very anxious guy, but no one around me could tell. So you have double, I call that the Jean-Claude Van Damme emotion, right? Because it’s double impact for the 1980s people.

 

You have the first impact, which is being like eaten by anxiety. And then you have to control, which is ever more, you know, ever more stressful. You have two emotions that you have to generate.

 

And often, of course, you still have eczema all over my hands or you have pain or stiffness. So it’s great, this whole thing, it becomes. Oh, yeah.

 

I mean, the body keeps the score, right? We know that. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Absolutely. And so we would train a lot of people, different people. Dr. Jacques Fumex in France, we created the Emotional Health Institute.

 

(32:02 – 32:20)

A physical therapist called Didier Godot was in the Réunion in France. Oh, right next to my family in Mauritius. That’s right.

 

That’s right. That’s right. So and then personal experiences and the work of Lisa Feldman Barrett out of Boston University.

 

(32:20 – 32:50)

For me, Lisa Feldman Barrett, Antonio Damasio, right now they are the top of the neuroscience of emotion. They can explain, of course, things are going to evolve, but they can explain very clearly how emotions are made. What I said at the beginning of our conversation here, that’s very much inspired by Lisa Feldman Barrett and her work.

 

I can only recommend the book, Our Emotions Are Made, which is amazing. Wow. And a lot of experimentation, a lot of sessions.

 

(32:52 – 33:26)

And so I want to ask you why emotions don’t make sense, because I feel like we’ve been skirting around it by exploring them. But is it the fact that they keep coming up for no reason? Is that what doesn’t make sense? Like, I’m otherwise safe. Why am I having an anxious, tight chest right now? Is that the frustration of like, damn it? Why? I don’t get it.

 

(33:29 – 34:13)

Emotions do not make sense because the part of ourselves that trigger, generate emotion do not make sense. In a way, trying to often say that to my clients, in a way, trying to come to understand your subconscious, your emotions, your body with your cognitive mind is like trying to understand God. If there is a God, how can you understand him with your small mind? Impossible.

 

Impossible. I mean, it’s the same thing here. You know, most of our emotion, debilitating emotion, are created by things in our environment that we’re not even aware of.

 

(34:13 – 34:57)

For example, if I meet you in person and I come close to you and I don’t know why, by meeting you, I feel very tense. I’m going to make up a story. I’m going to say, well, you know, I don’t like Alexx.

 

She seemed like there’s something wrong about her. She has bad intention. I’m going to make up a story.

 

The fact of the matter is maybe I start tensing next to you because maybe the smell that you have is a smell that reminded me, I don’t know, a teacher that used to bully me when I was three or four years old. Nothing to do with you whatsoever. But it’s going to be taken by one of my senses in a way that I do not understand or grasp.

 

I’m going to make up a story about it. But that’s nonsensical. That’s not the reality of things.

 

(34:58 – 36:34)

And chances are I will never know why I feel this way about you for a fact. I will believe my story and I will talk about my story. I’m going to make it real.

 

But that’s not reality. It doesn’t make sense because most of our emotions are created very early on at a time that we were not able to conceptualize anything. Our first thousand days of life is the most fertile garden for disruptive emotional pattern later on.

 

And when I say first thousand days, I mean from conception. So in utero birth and the first year of life. Yeah.

 

Wow. And so, okay. So I feel like I have to ask this because I always have like 50,000 people’s questions in my mind when I’m talking to a guest and I want to try and take care of as many people’s needs as possible.

 

And so I’m asking then if someone had a really rough pregnancy or if they were going through a really tumultuous time in their relationship and it led to divorce in the first year of their child being in the world. And they hear something like that and they think, oh my gosh, I’ve ruined everything. My child is ruined, you know, because we can, humans are so good at catastrophizing.

 

And so I just thought I would air that now, given you’ve just shared that to address it. Absolutely. So that’s a very, very good question.

 

(36:34 – 37:19)

First of all, if something happens that creates stress in the mother during pregnancy, it is never the fault of the mother. It is always related to the environment in which the mother is evolving. So first of all, if somebody feels extreme stress or divorce or is cheating, it’s never the fault of the mother.

 

What creates the anxiety is the environment. So as people around a future mother, our job is to keep the environment as safe and loving as possible. Number two, whatever happens in utero doesn’t have to stick with the baby.

 

(37:20 – 38:14)

What is most important is the environment of the baby after birth. Nurturing to the best of our capacity, the baby when they come out. And to do that, we’ve got to take care of ourselves.

 

The mom has to take care of herself first. Easy to say in Anglo-Saxon cultures, right? I mean, we get it so wrong. We’ve got to shift that.

 

We’ve got to shift that because so much guilt goes on the mother. All this is detrimental to the mom and to the baby, to the newborn. So what I want to say is it doesn’t matter what happened during birth, before birth, what really matters is to provide as much of a safe environment for the baby as soon as we can.

 

(38:14 – 38:19)

And for the mom. And for the mom. Of course, it’s just said and done.

 

(38:20 – 40:41)

But yeah, go cook a meal for your friends with newborns. Go clean their toilet and make them a cup of tea and ask them if they need anything. Absolutely.

 

And love them up. You know, love them up. Be with them.

 

Just be with them. Yeah. Such a good reminder.

 

And so if we have a child, if we’re parents out there listening, and we know things were really rough, how can we support our children to not hang on to these patterns and develop unproductive patterns that aren’t cemented in their current reality, say, that’s much safer and hunky-dory? Yep. Great question. My answer would be quite similar to the first one.

 

First, we’ve got to take care of ourselves as a parent. We’ve got to be as content as we can. Right.

 

The more content, the more we have the space to be present with our children when they have an emotion without being triggered ourself, the more we will nurture resilience. So I’m so glad this came up. I remember I used to be way too malleable to the emotions of my family.

 

You know, I mean, we throw around things like, oh, I’m an empath. But I think if it charters unproductive territory where you then lean so much into someone else’s feeling that you can’t hold space for that feeling and let them go through it, and you then end up going through it as well, it’s like double unproductive situation. For me, I did some hypnotherapy with a really wonderful guy down here.

 

And he asked me third, fourth session. He’s like, oh, you know, how are you going now, you know, when your son has a really tough day at school? I’m like, well, I’m sitting on the bed and I’m just listening and I’m okay. And so to your point, if you’re feeling that, absolutely work on yourself because then it allows the child to have their experience fully to the end.

 

(40:42 – 42:50)

Yes, that’s so important. And that’s what brings resilience to our children. To be to have a well content adult with them there as they’re going through their emotion without the adult trying to fix them.

 

Often when we teach in schools or when I teach with parents and a bit like you just explained, you say, well, how can I help the kid? What can I say? If we are triggered and we’re trying to help, quote unquote, help our child in a way, we’re trying to control them. We’re trying to control them because sensing them, seeing them suffering trigger us. So in a way, by trying to make them feel good, all we’re trying to do is to feel good ourselves.

 

We’re trying to control the situation. It’s all subconscious, of course, because it’s bringing it up for us. And so we’re trying to control both them.

 

Well, them so that we can then put the bad feeling away for ourselves as well. That’s right. That becomes control in a way.

 

It’s not cradled. You’re not there. You’re not doing that completely for them.

 

You do that for you as well, because it feels so tense and so bad and you’re suffering too much to see them suffer. So that for me is control, not, you know, not in a mean way. Right.

 

No, but it’s trying to control. So we feel better. You know, we talk.

 

Yeah, go ahead. Have we culturally confused care and control then from an emotional standpoint? I believe so. I believe so.

 

And I’m using control for lack of better word. But most of the time, very often we help others because seeing others hurt us. So by helping others, we stop hurting ourselves, which is different from compassion, right? Compassion in a way is OK.

 

You’re here, you suffer. I’m here. I’m not trying to fix you.

 

(42:50 – 43:12)

I’m not ignoring you. I give you attention, full attention. And if I can, after I’m here and I hear you, if I can.

 

I will help you if you want to. But I’m not going to if you want to. I’m so glad you added that.

 

Yeah, because sometimes it’s really just about listening. That’s right. And attention.

 

(43:12 – 43:31)

Mm hmm. You know, often people ask me, am I afraid that AI will take my place at some point or take the place of people who do this kind of work? And I say it’s possible because AI, actually, it’s not me who said that. It’s Yuri, the gentleman who bought Sapiens.

 

(43:31 – 47:48)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He said something that I said, it’s possible because AI really listens. AI listens.

 

It doesn’t think about what it’s about to say. It doesn’t think about a way to fix you. No, AI listens.

 

And for us as human beings, it’s not often that we can listen without being triggered, without already thinking about what we’re going to say next. Sometimes all it takes is to be here, attentive and listen, without thinking how to fix, what to say. Mm hmm.

 

So true. It kind of makes sense why people end up with robot girlfriends or boyfriends. This is better.

 

They’re just listening. If I have a bad day, I don’t have to talk about it beyond what I want to say. And and so, I mean, obviously, just having a laugh there.

 

But so. Take care of yourself first. So let’s just say, can we can we workshop what it might look like to recognize we are having an unproductive emotional pattern? And apply emotional resolution or your term for it is MRES, because that’s the trademark to to have a little like dip our toe in this, like how how would it how can we use it like in the next couple of days? I’m sure we’re all going to be walking through our life and go, oh, bottle that up.

 

That’s awful. I mean, it’s almost probably going to be quite frightening to people who haven’t done any of this kind of work of any kind to realize maybe how often it might happen. It happens constantly.

 

If we spend one day noticing the amount of tension in our body, like it’s tremendous. We only have big we only have labels for big emotions, right? Anxieties, anger. But these are not these are not the main emotion.

 

Van Gogh said. Our small emotions are the captains of our life as we obey them without noticing them. And that’s true.

 

We are every day we’re crossed by tensions and this tension that we feel give the dynamic of our life. Are we going to be in relationship with this person? Am I going to be present for my children with this project that we’re at work? There’s no big emotion, no big mood. It’s tension.

 

All these tensions are emotions. But to go back to your question, first of all, you’re right in order to to to do emotional resolution and rest, you’ve got to be aware of your emotion. So that’s going to be the first thing.

 

Be aware of the emotion and accept that we feel this emotion. How many emotion do we feel and we don’t accept that we feel this way? For example, I see a homeless person in the street inside. I feel disgusted because of the smell, because everything.

 

But I’m not going to show anything because my character, Cedric character, my persona is like, no, I’m an open minded person and I shouldn’t feel disgusted. So that’s just a food for thought. In a sense, we are going through a lot of emotions that we deny toward ourself because we feel ashamed about them, because we feel guilty about feeding them.

 

The first step is recognizing our emotional pattern and accepting them, even if they suck. So if I’m witnessing you be disgusted and you actually play it out and you show that to me, then I might be disgusted in you and I might bottle that up. And then so that’s how we’re doing the co-bottling up as well as a completely different example to the parent child one.

 

That’s right. And how many how many a mother or dad after pregnancy feels like they they they they they cannot do it. They they sometimes have clients that I hate my child.

 

They cannot say that to anybody else. So you have to be able to to welcome that. Yeah, it’s not congruent with the image that the words want you to give or the image you want to give to the world, but accept it.

 

(47:48 – 48:20)

Nobody else has to know. Accept it for yourself. Accept.

 

I accept that I feel disgusted by somebody I see in the street, for example. OK, no problem. That’s what I feel.

 

What can I do about it? Well, I’m going to enter it. So I feel that the first thing I’m going to do when I feel this disgust, I don’t deny it. OK, I move along the corner and the first thing I’m going to do, I’m going to close my eyes.

 

I’m going to be very pragmatic. So people who listen to the show can do it. Why is it important to close my eyes, not to shut down the outside? That’s one plus.

 

(48:20 – 48:57)

It’s important for me to be able to close my eyes without having to worry about opening them. You know, the first thing that any mammal do when they’re afraid is that they stop blinking. If a dog is afraid, a horse is afraid, a cow is afraid, the first thing they do, the first sign of fear is they stop blinking.

 

Same thing for us. So if you’re in front of this big spider that you talked about earlier, if the spider is a few centimeters away from you, I guarantee you that when you feel the phobia, if you try to close your eyes, you’re going to want to look at her. You won’t be comfortable to see.

 

(48:58 – 49:34)

You know me too well. Everybody, right? Everybody. So it’s most important that when we feel the emotion we want to resolve, we need to be able to close our eyes and not wanting to open them.

 

That means that the body feels safe. OK. There’s a big difference between I know cognitively that I’m safe because the spider is not going to jump on me and for the body to be able to feel safe.

 

You know that your body feels safe and so that you’ll be able to resolve your pattern if you can close your eyes while feeling the emotion. Without any effort. It’s almost like that’s the disruption piece.

 

(49:34 – 49:36)

That’s right. Right. OK.

 

(49:37 – 52:15)

So you need to be able to close your eyes and be OK with that. And then you’re going to feel two sensations in your body. Basically, you can ask yourself, how do I know that I feel afraid? What in my being, what in my body right now makes me realize that I feel disgusted, afraid, angry? Feel these physical sensations.

 

So get out of the conceptualization of the emotion, of the why of the emotion, feel the interoception. What physical sensations make me realize that I’m afraid or disgusted? Maybe it’s a knot in the throat. The heart is beating stronger, tension in the belly, shaking legs.

 

You feel two sensations at once. There, you’re not in the cognitive, you’re not the intellect anymore. You’re now in the sensorial.

 

So in a way, you’re now in the subconscious. You’re now in touch. You’re now intimate maybe for the first time with your emotion.

 

You’re now physically intimate with your emotion, because most of the time when we’re angry, we scream. So we, you know, It’s an externalization. Yeah.

 

Or we, I don’t know, if we’re anxious, we can smoke. We always, no, no, no, no. Here, let’s be intimate.

 

Let’s get into the belly of the beast. It’s inside. Yeah.

 

Reach for the packet of chips or have a drink or all the things that we do to soothe. But we should actually feel. That’s right.

 

And pragmatically feel the sensations in us. Feel the interoception. Feel two sensations at once.

 

Why two? Because if you only feel one, it’s enough space for your mind to go and think. You need to keep your mind at bay. Your mind needs to be intensely active in feeling what’s happening within you and nothing else.

 

Then those sensations are going to start changing in you. It’s a transformation of sensation. That’s the predictive interoception playing out.

 

Now your job is to keep on feeling, which is an intense action, what’s happening within you as it’s changing, even if it becomes uncomfortable. Don’t scream about it. Don’t stretch about it.

 

Don’t take a deep breath. No, no, feel. It’s not going to last longer than 90 seconds.

 

Feel intensely what’s happening within physically until the sensations calm down. And when they come, open your eyes. And if you can, expose yourself again to what just triggered you to see if your reaction is different.

 

(52:17 – 52:32)

It would be good exercise. So this is how anybody who can listen to us, you know, it’s it’s very pragmatic. It’s not much.

 

It’s, it’s, it’s human. It’s mammal. It’s natural.

 

(52:35 – 53:26)

Yeah. And I think back to your grandfather’s example of the war and, um, and how many soldiers in different situations, maybe struggled after the war. I know my husband’s grandfather became an alcoholic here in Australia and like every family has something, you know, these incredible heroes, uh, and, and, and some made it through like your granddad with, um, with that beautiful example in nature.

 

And it, for me, the, the, the thing that’s coming through with all of it is. Are you in, are you in a surrounding culture, whether it’s your immediate family or your culture that you’re living in, that is a culture of suppression, get on with it, chin up, you know, Australians, you have to be a tough guy. It’s very much embedded in our culture.

 

(53:27 – 55:50)

Um, and why a lot of our veterans struggle, um, America, I would say the same. They have a lot of struggling veterans, but if you, if you get to just have your experience of how hard that was and let it move through you and feel it, um, it’s, I mean, I completely understand after speaking about this for 45 minutes, why that would be a much healthier option. Completely.

 

And that’s also why with MRAS, we never talk about trauma because trauma healing is a good concept and people sell book about that, but trauma healing doesn’t exist. Trauma happened. There’s nothing we can do about it.

 

It can be a rape. It can be bullying. It can be neglect.

 

It can be something at war trauma happened. It’s a fact. What’s the point to talk about it? If it passed a long time ago, the only thing we can do is to heal the wounds and this trauma created in our current life.

 

So regardless, almost of what happened in the past, what are the difficulties? What are the emotional difficulties today in our life? We don’t need to go back. Whatever we feel today, this can be resolved. And for resolving that, yes, we quote unquote impact the trauma, but you know, talking about trauma in a way is retraumatizing I think.

 

And, you know, I’ve been doing that for a long time now. I never had a client who had one trauma they can remember. Let’s say sexual abuse, for example.

 

And from this one trauma, I think only one emotional pattern coming out of it. It makes sense, right? If I’m being sexually abused, do you think I’m only going to have one dissociation? No, I’m going to go in and out and in and out and in and out. And every time I go out, that’s an opportunity, so to speak, to create another pattern.

 

So going to the trauma is not necessary, nor productive. What are the difficulties that we’re encountering today in our life? And resolving them one after another. That for me is key.

 

(55:51 – 59:58)

Well, it is an absolutely fascinating, thought provoking take. I can tell you that. And I know it will give a lot of people listening food for thought.

 

I shared obviously in the intro how people can connect with your work and and providers of this kind of do we call it therapy? Am I allowed to use that word? I don’t think I am now that I’ve spoken to you. Yeah, it’s not therapy. It’s a body of work.

 

It’s a body of work. It’s a method, so to speak. And it’s not MRS is not the protocol.

 

It’s it’s a body of work. There’s a lot of things that we can do to to allow people to integrate those pieces of their life that that have been stolen by by some events that we can remember them or not. It’s a methodology, a method.

 

Yeah. And I think so key in what you have said is that we can remember them or not, because for some of us, it might even be a birth trauma. I think of, you know, my mom pushing for like, you know, hours and hours and hours and then me having to come out with an emergency C-section.

 

And I don’t I think about this often, but I don’t find it weird that both my sister and I had exactly the same types of births ourselves pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing cesarean. I mean, talk about traumatic right for the mom and the baby, right? Yeah. So the lesson for me in talking to you, Cedric, is is it’s not so important to understand where these patterns of emotional anxiety or whatever it might be that you’re experiencing come from, but rather to understand how you can actually start dismantling the unproductivity of them by feeling them rather than trying to talk through them or.

 

Other other methods, it’s empowering to, you know, is not giving your well-being away to your past or to a therapist. Sure. I mean, obviously, we train people in MRAS.

 

I receive, you know, a lot of people doing MRAS session. But what do I do? I allow them to feel what they feel without taking any space. Right.

 

If I try to to say to too much, if I try to to be comforting or no, I’m taking too much space and they are not in their stuff. They’re not going to feel their prediction by themselves. It’s giving back the power to the power to to the people.

 

It sounds a bit strange, but but that’s that’s what it is. Right. I don’t break out into a John Lennon song from the 70s.

 

Thank you so much for joining us. This has been enlightening and absolutely thought provoking. I feel like I want to hit stop and go journal for a bit and notice some things.

 

So I really appreciate your work. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

 

Thank you. I hope you loved today’s show as much as I loved bringing it to you. I want to remind you that if you are someone who craves a low-tox community that is judgment free, full of empowerment, has health professionals and building health professionals that can support you as well as me in their answering questions multiple times a week, I want to invite you to join the low-tox club for the price of less than a cup of coffee a month.

 

You have an annual membership for forty nine dollars Australian. So it’s about thirty dollars US or euro that allows you to have a member masterclass every single month with a health professional or global expert from the podcast where we have them to ourselves for an hour to ask questions and deep dive further. You have the beautiful supportive chat group.

 

You have Q&A’s with me, me answering questions. We read books and talk about them and a whole bunch more. You can head to lowtoxlife.com, hit the explore tab and join the club is the very first option on that list.

 

(59:58 – 1:01:52)

Of course, we have over ten evergreen courses that you can jump into anytime, whether it’s navigating everyday low-tox swaps with our go low-tox signature course, whether you have kids and you’re wanting to know how to best support them with our low-tox kids course, whether you’re planning a family and looking at a healthy low-tox preconception journey, reducing inflammation, especially the chronic kind without inflammation ninja course, many, many other courses. You can again head to lowtoxlife.com, hit the courses tab and you’ll see all of the options, which includes a business course, my low-tox method program. A lot of people don’t know, but I was doing a lot before starting low-tox life in 2009 and I was a business consultant across hospitality, health, retail and cosmetics.

 

 

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