Show #382 Genius wisdom to help you in all areas of life, with Gay & Katie Hendricks


About this show:

There could be a million different reasons this hour might improve your life. You will have to listen and find out, but all I will say is don’t delay.  

That we have Gay and Katie Hendricks, their separate and collaborative bodies of work and their books to share so much wisdom, makes me feel good about the world and I’m overjoyed to bring them to you in the show this week. 

We talk about all this and more: 


  • Creative Possibility – how to harness it and foster it. 
  • Conscious living – what it is in practice and how it doesn’t look ‘one way’ for all. 
  • The magic of appreciating and taking time to notice each other and our uniqueness
  • Katie’s “Presence; connect; play” exercise
  • Upper Limit Problems – How to notice self-sabotage and whether you might secretly believe you don’t deserve to experience a great life. 
  • That health problem that keeps popping up? Could it be an upper limit problem of yours? I share an old one. 
  • Chronic pain and attention issues are often the symptoms, not the problem. 
  • Love and connection to get closer together with the people we love.


Put simply: We explore many big things this week that will crack us open to be put back together even better, Kintsugi-style. A must listen. A gift to share it with people in your life as is all the work Gay and Katie have done. 


I cannot wait to hear what you got from this week’s show,


Alexx Stuart

Founder of Low Tox Life and the Low Tox movement

Join me on Insta @lowtoxlife


Questions we explore in the show:

    1. I want to start with F.A.C.T (Facing, accepting, choosing and taking action) because KATIE I’ve seen you say “if I were on a life raft and could only pull one skill out this would be it out of all the practices we do…” and moving from ‘getting through it’ to ‘thriving through the unknown’. 
    2. Gay, if you think about your executive coach work with large organisations and successful individuals – what’s something/an example that can come from business/work life? 
    3. Gay… why is using our whole body critical to using F.A.C.T
    4. Can we talk about how we’re in a very wobbly time energetically in the world and it all feels ‘too fast’ or ‘out of control’ to so many of us and why so many of us are feeling in “maximum wobble” right now?  (well that could be our hour together right there! hehe). 
    5. When things feel ‘big out there’ why can it be so powerful to work ‘right here’ in our own comparatively small lives, relationships, being a good parent, community member… 
    6. So in doing that work that we DO have agency around and CAN feel a sense of purpose and progress, I’d love to spend some time on relationships… Firstly thank you for your commitment to Conscious Loving… 
    7. What is co-dependence vs co-committed? 
    8. What does it look like to practice being co-committed to each other in your relationship, having a great one and teaching others to as well – does one always have work to do and that’s part of being co-committed? Is there a thing that happens some time where you’re thinking ‘oop – work to do there’ or is it a process integrated into your every day? 
    9. Have you ever felt you lost yourselves a little / lost that balance between independence and being fully together over the years? Is there a particular practice you find useful to share when someone might feel that’s happening in their relationship? 
    10. What are some training wheels steps for people who feel stuck in ‘we always argue about’ or ‘you always shut down when we start talking about…’ patterns. 
    11. I love that you point out that we miss a huge opportunity if we’re “Never saying anything” or challenging our partner or accepting an opportunity for growth when we’re challenged… There’s an absence of growth in the old phrase ‘don’t rock the boat’ but perhaps we need to learn how to build a stronger boat instead of rocking it and learn that conscious loving is about doing that? 
    12. Katie, as someone who helps people feel through their whole bodies to tune in and express what one needs to and exploring F.A.C.T at the start of this exploration spoke to… how can we start to 
    13. Gay, can you explain ULPs and how they come into our relationships to sometimes hinder that co-committment and intimacy we so want or how  ULPs can mean we don’t fact the F.A.C.T? 
    14. What can a ULP look like when we’re trying to make a leap to a new level in our relationships? 
    15. Nay sayer / devil’s advocate questions on ULPs and Conscious Loving might be… “But isn’t it normal for couples to fight sometimes?” … “But I can’t experience joy all the time, that’s unrealistic” “but sometime4s cutting your finger or getting a cold is just that – it surely can’t always be about an upper limit problem?”  
    16. Parent/child relationship – Gay I remember in The Big Leap you talked about the scenario of your daughter saying she needed to tell you something and you then painting yourself a huge and unnecessary picture about what she meant before finally seeing her…” I was curious, as it was an example in the book of where we can catastrophise and fill in blanks that aren’t there and fill ourselves with awful feelings as parents (GUILTY!) are you saying after that realisation you found a way to stop doing that – parents want to know! Hehe. 
    17. If Gay, you could issue us a curiosity challenge about our upper limits and how they might be affecting our lives and relationships, (which you do so well in the Big leap year which I encourage everyone to read!) this week, what would you like to invite us to do? 
    18. Kate – Could you issue us a whole body exercise for our week ahead to work on and be curious about?



Thank you to this month’s show sponsor for helping you make your low tox swaps easier:


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Be sure to join me on Instagram @lowtoxlife and tag me with your shares and AHAs of this week’s episode.



About Gay & Katie Hendricks

Gay Hendricks and Kathlyn Hendricks have been pioneers in the fields of body intelligence and

relationship transformation for more than forty years. They’ve mastered ways to translate powerful concepts and life skills into experiential processes where people can discover their body intelligence and easily integrate life-changing skills. Katie and Gay have empowered hundreds of coaches around the world to add a body intelligence perspective to enhance fields

from medicine to sports psychology, education and personal growth. Together and singly they have authored more than fifty books, including such bestsellers as Conscious Loving, The Big Leap, Conscious Loving Ever After: How to Create Thriving Relationships at Midlife and Beyond and Your Big Leap Year. They have appeared on more than 500 television and radio programs, including Oprah, 48 Hours and others. More information on Drs. Hendricks can be found at and

Connect with Gay & Katie on the following platforms:

Websites — and 

Instagram @bigleaphome and    

Facebook @fclconnect

Grab Gay’s book available at Booktopia here:



More about this month’s sponsors:

Thank you to this month’s sponsors for partnering with our show and helping you make your swaps with their special offer:

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Offer: Ausclimate is now giving all Low Tox Life followers an EXTRA 10% OFF their already discounted prices. Simply enter the discount code of LOWTOXLIFE on check out via:

This discount can also be redeemed for over-the-phone orders verbally.








Is a personal care upgrade or re-stock of your faves in your low tox priorities right now? You’re in luck if you’re in Australia, as you have 20% Weleda site-wide, from April 29th to June 3rd. Head here and use code LOWTOXLIFE at check out. 

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Title show track, by LIOR.

Love the podcast music? You will hear excerpts from Lior’s track “Caught Up”  – go check it out on iTunes or Spotify if you want to hear the whole song or album, Scattered Reflections. Co-written with Cameron Deyell, it’s a great song and I love the reflective energy of it – perfect for the show, right? Enjoy. Lior is always touring, so do check out his website. It is wonderful to hear him sing live, trust me.

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If you would love reading like me or you just simply want to go through the full transcript, you can check below.

[Alexx] (0:00 – 8:10)

Be prepared for your life to be changed after today’s show with Gay and Katie Hendricks. Hello and welcome to the Low Tox Life podcast. I’m Alexx Stewart, your host.


Today is show 382 and if you’re new here, welcome to the Low Tox Movement. has everything you need. I’m over on Insta at Low Tox Life and I’m so joyful, grateful, happy to see so many reviews coming through lately from the podcast and beautiful comments as well.


Not just clicking a star, which by all means, feel free to do that if you’re low on time, but it is just so lovely to read how life-changing a particular show is or just how much you enjoy the variety, which is a message that comes through super often. Today I have such a treat for us. Gay and Katie Hendricks have a separate and together body of work spanning over 40 years.


They’ve been married for over 40 years and they are truly the most beautiful humans. If you haven’t connected with their work in any way, you will absolutely be doing so after this hour and thinking, how did I not know about these guys? I remember seeing them in my teens on the Oprah show talking about conscious loving because they had just written a book.


But if you look at their PhDs separately, Katie Hendricks, her PhD was in body and movement and how the movement of the body and the feelings in the body can inform our mind to be more charged and more creative. And so that movement therapy piece is huge in her work. And then Gay, who has worked with organizations and business leaders and athletes all over the world, working on upper limit problems and the ways that we self-sabotage at either conscious or unconscious levels.


And together, they kind of more and more now in, as elders, I will call them that because they truly are for me, the embodiment of the modern elder. They have fused their creative and academic work to work together more. And today we’re going to unpack all sorts of goodness, right from how we’re taught and how we feel.


We have to conform through to creative possibility, conscious loving, and those self-sabotaging upper problems. Oh my gosh, you are going to love them. Of course, we can’t be here without our show supporters.


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And I was able to share with them some research, uh, that they really took on board and appreciated, which I just, I mean, hello companies, could we do that a little more, please? I love working with them. They give you 10% off code LOWTOXLIFE again, nice and easy.


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Uh, but they really, they look great. I can’t wait to actually get one myself. We’ve got one tiny little oil heater in our mix.


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That’s an extra 5% off. So it’s like a 15% off bundle. So all of those details are in the show notes.


Cause that’s a bit complicated to listen to while you’re walking in the park. So I’m going to get on with this incredible conversation with Gay and Katie Hendricks. Enjoy.


Hello. How are we doing? Good.


How are you today? Oh, I am so well, and I am so grateful for your time today. Both of you are just such legends and, uh, to bring it to our Australian and global audience.


I’m, um, I just feel like this is a very, um, deep moment of gratitude. So I’m going to start by asking you both about fact, uh, F-A-C-T facing, accepting, choosing, and taking action because Katie, I’ve seen you say it kind of like a maypole for literally everything you, you both teach on. And I think I watched a video once where you talked about if it was your life raft, uh, template for, for living life, right?


That’s the one you would take.


[Gay/Katie] (8:10 – 8:10)



[Alexx] (8:11 – 8:17)

And we start by talking about it a little bit and absolutely why it’s so critical. Yes.


[Gay/Katie] (8:17 – 12:40)

Well, um, we, uh, we began seeing a long time ago that there was a transformational sequence that people move through that was really the most friendly that allowed them to have an inner shift that got reflected in their outer actions that really gave them the impetus and the fuel to live their lives differently and more in alignment. And, uh, I think we actually started with A-C-T accepting and choosing and taking action. And then through interactions with one of our colleagues, we came up with the, with the facing.


Yes. And we started looking into that and, well, if you think about it in terms of a common issue that people deal with, um, people that go into Alcoholics Anonymous, let’s say they want to transform their alcoholism and quit being dependent on alcohol. The first thing they have to do is face that they’re an alcoholic.


You know, like I play golf sometimes with a fellow who’s got about 20 years of sobriety and he can point to this moment where his life changed, where he stood up in front of a group for the first time and said, hi, my name is John and I’m an alcoholic. And it was like this giant burden lifted off of him because he hadn’t faced that in years and years and years. And predictably his life had been falling apart.


And so, um, but that’s just one type of change, almost anything you can think of, you know, like when your alarm goes off in the morning, the first thing you have to do is just sort of face that issue. Okay. In the world in which I function, it is 6.30 AM, you know, and, uh, and I’m a person of agreement, so I must get up now. So it, uh, but facing, and then there’s that moment of acceptance. Okay. I accept that it’s Monday or Tuesday and I’m, doing an Australian pub dance.


And one of the, one of the more recent discoveries about accepting, because I would kind of treat it like a, being on a train that we’re going to that destination of accepting. And then I realized that with accepting, there’s a large part of people that just doesn’t want to, or is afraid to. And so what we added to accepting is that I want to accept, and I don’t, you know, I want to accept, and I want somebody else to do it first, you know, I want to accept, but I’m still mad and playing with that to really, uh, accept all of the different voices.


And then you, I found that people can much more easily come to yes, with all of that, I’m accepting that, you know, this is what’s going on in this moment. And it really liberated forward momentum into choosing. Um, and with choosing, what I often found was that people will start with what they don’t want rather than what they want.


And that’s a good place to start. Don’t stop there, but, but people often have to recognize, I really don’t want that. I was remembering working with a, with a woman who was in a blended family and she, they were having, you know, issues of course, about blending the family.


And, uh, I asked her what she wanted, she said, I just like them to all disappear. And, and then that was, I thought, oh, you know, we just recognize that. And then she said, oh no, I don’t really, but you know, honoring those different voices in it so that we’re not manipulating ourselves into any kind of acceptance or choosing, but then taking action is really where the rubber meets the road.


And if you have, if you’ve done your accepting and facing, uh, and choosing, then the taking action gives you momentum, you know, and moving forward in a way that has your oomph behind it. It all goes back though, to that first thing about, am I willing to face whatever it is or not? And, um, so, you know, if you’re on your life raft, one of the big questions to ask yourself is what is it I haven’t been facing here, you know, that’s got me in this particular place.


And so the moment you begin to ask that, some magic can have been, begin to, uh, work for you.


[Alexx] (12:41 – 13:22)

Yeah. Well, I was thinking of your alarm clock, uh, example as, as I’m hearing you both talk. And I know it was kind of used as a trivial, simple thing people can all relate to, but people don’t face that at six 30, they snooze, they delay, they deny, and then they dread having to choose to wake up and then using fact to examine the reality of that happening every single day in your life would perhaps bring up the fact that, Oh my God, no, I don’t choose this job or I don’t choose.


[Gay/Katie] (13:23 – 15:00)

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a big issue for people.


A lot of times in their thirties and forties are very rich times when people begin to wake up to some of these things, because, uh, in developmental psychology, we say in your thirties, you find your life in your forties, you build your life in your fifties, you start to enjoy your life. Hopefully start. You’ll be enjoying it all the time, but you know, traditionally people don’t really start to enjoy their life until they have some wisdom and experience.


And, you know, they, the yearning that goes along with your thirties and forties to build something and create something. And, but again, uh, it all wakes up the moment you begin to ask yourself, Hmm, what do I need to face in my life? What do I need to open up to and face and accept?


We use the breathing process as a metaphor a lot of times, because if you think about it, facing and accepting is kind of a in-breath like, what have I got down in here? What’s going on down in here? Then choosing and taking action are out into the world.


Yeah. Out breaths. And so, uh, it’s an easy way to kind of check yourself.


Am I having more of a problem of what do I need to accept hard to accept something hard to face something, or is it a problem? I need to make a choice and take an action because sometimes it can be, you know, what to do is just like taking action.


[Alexx] (15:01 – 15:07)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we’ve all got that right up.


Why aren’t I doing the thing that I know I need and want to do?


[Gay/Katie] (15:08 – 16:49)

Yeah. And I had a client once who, um, bless her heart. Um, she had lost her husband in an automobile accident like three or four years before.


And sometimes on the weekend, his mother, her mother-in-law would have a few, too many drinks and call her and kind of start talking to her abusively about, you know, you never made him happy and crazy stuff that people say when they’re drunk, you know, it was all out of her missing him and her anguish, but she would take it out on my client. And so I said, well, you know, I said, how often has she done that? Oh, you know, I can expect it just about any Friday or Saturday night.


And I said, okay, I’m going to give you a two second solution to this problem. And, um, you probably never thought of it and you’ll probably try to talk me out of it, but here it goes. And I’ll even show it to you.


You don’t even have to think about it. So I went over there and I picked up my phone and I went like this and then I went bonk. And she said, oh my God, I could never do that.


That would be so disrespectful. What do you think is coming in? You know, you’re sitting there saying, abuse me, abuse me.


It’s Friday night. Call me up, you know, and unconsciously that invitation is always there. She only had to do that one time and it changed everything.


The mother-in-law called back sobbing and said, you know, I apologize. I, it was the best favor you could have ever done for me.


[Alexx] (16:50 – 17:02)

And well, that hang up was the mother-in-law having to, having to face and accept that what she was doing was didn’t, wasn’t producing anything that she actually even wanted. Exactly.


[Gay/Katie] (17:02 – 17:02)



[Alexx] (17:03 – 17:38)

Wow. And as you both talked about the, the inhale, the in-breath out-breath, it makes me think of your body of work, Katie, specifically on bringing our entire bodies into feeling and processing and choosing and acting. And why is it such a secret sauce step for us to take to start really bringing the body into, into life?


I mean, it seems crazy that this isn’t like front page news every day.


[Gay/Katie] (17:40 – 19:35)

Well, when you use, well, we now know that your brain doesn’t just exist in your head, that you have brain cells all over your body. And that when you activate your breathing and your movement and your, you activate your whole body thinking. And one thing it does is just give you much more fuel because your cognitive brain is kind of dry.


It can only work with what it receives. And the sensory input that you get from your body is so much more powerful and so much juicier than a lot of the cognitive, rational, you know, logical things that the cognitive brain is up to. And when you’re using, for example, when you’re using something we call loop of awareness, which in a study they call shuttling, when you’re able to shift your attention.


So as I’m talking to you, if I can also give awareness to my own sensory experience, and then back to you, and then back to me, which is a skill people can learn, it increases their communication effectiveness between 18 and 20%, just that. And so there are a whole bunch of studies about how expanding our brain beyond what we think of is just enclosed in our head has a huge number of benefits of creating more intuition, more collaboration, and a bigger generator of creative thoughts as well. And we often say, in fact, when we wrote At the Speed of Life, which is our body-centered therapy book, we wrote it back in the 90s, one of the things we would say is the quickest way to change your brain is to change your body.


The quickest way to change your mind is to change your body. And then that immediately reverberates in different thought structures that give you more possibilities, rather than running the same old loop over and over again.


[Alexx] (19:38 – 19:39)

Sorry, no, go for it.


[Gay/Katie] (19:39 – 20:12)

There’s a great, there’s a great line from a James Joyce novel, from back in the 20s or 30s. And the line says, Mr. Duffy lived a short distance from his body. And, you know, it’s a condition that all of us have in a way, because we’re, we’re trained to get away from our bodies in a way, you know, like, we see commercials, where a person holds up a, whatever it is, the chips or the beer or whatever.


[Alexx] (20:12 – 20:14)

Have a break, have a KitKat.


[Gay/Katie] (20:14 – 20:21)

This is what you want. And if you’re really having a good time, you’ll get together a bunch of your friends and you’ll all do this together.


[Alexx] (20:22 – 20:23)

And drink weird brown water.


[Gay/Katie] (20:28 – 22:13)

And I’m not putting that down. I enjoy cracking a stubby myself now and then and drinking a beer. But we’re taught oftentimes in school to get away from our bodies, because like, in movement therapy, how many thousands of movements can a person make before they get into the educational process?


Three thousand. Three thousand. And how many, when they’re measured again, when they get out of high school, how many are they down to?


Three hundred. So we lop off 90% of our creative possibility, and primarily to, you know, to fit in, you know, to be accepted, to not get in trouble. But when I, before we get in school, people are moving around and, you know, organizing themselves, and then you have to sit.


And I, for me, that was hell to, you know, they told me to sit still and try to learn something. And God bless her when I was in the fourth grade, my teacher, Mrs. Morgan, told me that I could sit in the back of the room and move. And because I was a fidgeter.


And so I went, and so I did. And I went overnight from being a C student to being an A student. And, you know, like the world opened up.


And I just feel so much sadness about how many people like me, you know, are told to sit still and pay attention, which is, you know, pretty impossible to sit still and pay attention really for anybody. That when we’re in movement, you know, even if it’s the movement of breathing and the movement of just shifting our postures, we get that circulation of aliveness and the possibility of something new.


[Alexx] (22:15 – 22:48)

I wanted to, I’ve got tears in the side of my face with you, Katie. Ah, the amount of times I was moved around the class because I was fidgeting too much or, and so many people, right. And I don’t want to poo-poo, we have a lot of teachers that listen, trying to expand their awareness skills and see how they can do best for their students.


So this is not about a profession or an institution, because different people thrive in different ways. I would love for us to actually start just working from that.


[Gay/Katie] (22:48 – 24:13)

Yes. So different learning styles and, and really good teachers really incorporate all kinds of learning styles and allow people to have solo time and, you know, small, you know, small group impaired learning. But it’s still, people will tend to medicate rather than using the natural organic processes, you know, breathing and moving and communicating can handle almost everything.


There’s a great example of that. The late John Sarno, who was a medical doctor that was the head of the back pain division of Rusk Rehab in New York, very famous place. He treated 95% of his back pain patients without medication or surgery by teaching them how to tune in inside and figure out, number one, whether they were angry about something, because a lot of people kind of compress their anger into the stuff, their feelings and thoughts.


And, but that was the big discovery for most people that there was this stuff inside their bodies that they were relating to that they didn’t really know about. And so a lot of famous celebrities like Howard Stern and Rosie O’Donnell finally got their back pain cleared up by probably getting in touch with how mad they were about something.


[Alexx] (24:14 – 24:18)

And broadcasting it on the internet. That’s therapy in itself.


[Gay/Katie] (24:19 – 24:37)

Yeah, but it’s a good, we recently came across, I love it when science finally proves something we’ve been talking about for 20 or 30 years. But science has recently discovered the value of people tuning into their internal body sensations.


[Alexx] (24:38 – 24:39)

Oh, well, what do you know?


[Gay/Katie] (24:39 – 24:50)

Yeah, what do you know? And they’ve even come up with a new phrase for it, sense foraging. Sense foraging.


I think that’s pretty good. That’s pretty good.


[Alexx] (24:50 – 24:55)

Well, because it’s going in curious, right? Foraging has a curiosity about it.


[Gay/Katie] (24:56 – 28:04)

It’s like you’re looking in the forest for truffles or mushrooms or something, you know, you’re foraging. And so kudos to whoever came up with that phrase. But it’s the stuff we’ve been talking about.


And you’ve probably been thinking about for the last whole bunch of years. Ever since we have been together, we’ve been working on the issue of how to connect people with their body experience. And as they do that, their symptoms go away, whatever the symptom is.


We’ve also been a lot in the work of helping people learn how to be in harmony with each other in relationships. The first books we were on Oprah with way back in the 90s was Conscious Loving, which is our book about relationships, one of our books about relationship. But in a way, you can’t really do relationship right unless you’re somewhat in your body.


You’ve got to have a body and a mind to do relationship because you have to be in touch when you’re angry, when you’re sad, when you’re scared, when you’re whatever you are, it thrives on awareness. And, you know, a lot of people have the agreement with the other person in their marriage or their relationship. Okay, I won’t grow if you promise not to either.


A kind of unconscious deal. But when people are able to, just tying this back to the sense foraging, our descriptors for our inner experience, our human tendencies, we have a very limited vocabulary. We’re like not even first graders in our ability to describe what’s going on.


If someone says, how are you? You know, usually I’m fine or I’m okay, or I’m feeling a little off today. But there’s really nothing to land on.


And it doesn’t really touch what is circulating in your body. So we’ve spent a lot of time really looking at how can I describe what’s going on for me. And then that leads to speaking to each other in a different way.


You know, when you’re doing what we call speaking from discovery. So yeah, I’m noticing that I’m feeling some itching in my shoulders. And it’s a kind of a, you know, itching.


And then that leads to, oh, I was, oh, I was angry or early this morning, and I didn’t catch it. And it’s all about what I’m experiencing, rather than what you’re doing, and you know, what you’re doing wrong. You know, because usually it’s like, whose fault is it?


And who gets to be right? But when you shift to, here’s what I’m experiencing, it opens up so much more intimacy. So what people whatever people can do to open up their internal vocabulary, one of the ways we start with that is with verbs, because we we describe things like I’m good, I’m bad.


But what if I’m, you know, I’m pulsing today, or, you know, I’m blobbing out or when you’re when you use verbs, they’re just so much more of the full aliveness of your experience that gets communicated.


[Alexx] (28:04 – 28:26)

And it would make someone more curious to ask a follow up question, right? Because if my friend said, I’m really blobbing today, I’d be like, what does that mean? Tell me more.


I don’t get it. And in like a really non confrontational way, I think when we’re just focused on describing what’s going on for us.


[Gay/Katie] (28:26 – 29:04)

Yeah, it moves into what we call the unarguable, that if I can learn to speak in a way that doesn’t generate argument, don’t have to circulate arguments, because so many relationships get stuck, actually in the same argument over and over. And it’s usually who’s right, who gets to be right, and who’s wrong. And people get really stuck in that.


And it keeps them from experiencing the generative power of a close relationship, the creativity, and just the all time fun, like, I have so much fun with you every day. And I’m always discovering something new about you.


[Alexx] (29:06 – 30:24)

And it’s certainly like, it literally radiates off the screen. You obviously had quite separate careers for a while before deciding to work together. And I think the first time I ever saw you guys was like, you know, I’m thinking about my late teenage years where you’ve got the stuffy Kleenex, you get a bit of a cold, you’re on the couch, you flick on Oprah, like, oh, these guys are amazing.


This sounds really good. But I was way too, I mean, I was probably 18, 19, to, to really hear the messages of that book at that time. And I’ve recently picked it up again, and thought, well, this is exciting work to do on, on yourself, even really.


Because to decide to be a conscious lover, there’s a lot of personal work to do. And so I want to ask, because at the very beginning of that book, you do explain the difference between co-dependence and co-commitment. And a lot of people might hear co-dependence and think, oh, that’s really great, we depend on each other.


You guys have something healthier to explain. Let’s put it that way.


[Gay/Katie] (30:26 – 31:57)

Co-dependence, I think came from the original use of it was in addictions work, where you started to have to look at not only the person who was taking the drugs or doing the alcohol, but how the rest of the people in the family were enabling that or supporting that in some way. And so, but in our work, we began to see that there’s a choice point where a person goes in the direction of either unconscious loving, or conscious loving, because all of us go through the same stages in relationships, two people get together, and the energy between them is more than they’ve been generating on their own. And the effect of that is it, wow, feels good.


You’re what I’ve always wanted. And the downside of that is it brings up fears. What you might lose way down there that have kept you from being that way all the time already.


And so we just started realizing when we come up to those fears, you know, most people go unconscious and push each other away or pull back, withhold, withhold or criticize something that would create distance. And we just started to kind of get rid of all those things and didn’t interfere with the closeness. And so we developed a kind of closeness.


We, we just met 44 years ago, a couple of months ago. Congrats. Yes.


[Alexx] (31:57 – 32:01)

Yeah, we just celebrated my mom and dad’s 50th wedding anniversary on the weekend.


[Gay/Katie] (32:01 – 32:16)

Oh, bless their hearts. That’s great. I, I, I, I grew up next door to my grandparents.


And they were married for 63 years. But like my mother said, for 59 and a half of those years, they weren’t speaking to each other.


[Alexx] (32:17 – 32:40)

But we say these things in our culture, right? We kind of say them as throwaway lines. Oh, yeah, of course, you know, grandma and grandpa.


But it’s, it’s almost like then an affirmation, a perpetuation of some of these things that we kind of grow up in the same relationships and think, oh, well, it’s normal, because my grandparents were like that.


[Gay/Katie] (32:40 – 32:58)

Right. Or that’s just how people are. And we still hear a lot of those mythologies about marriage, like, you know, even on, you know, on programs on television, though, you know, someone will say, you’ve been arguing a lot, you must be married.


You know, yes. Yeah. Or you’re not having much sex.


Are you? How long have you been married?


[Alexx] (32:58 – 32:59)

Yeah. Yeah.


[Gay/Katie] (32:59 – 33:19)

So those, those kinds of assumptions that, you know, have your fun now, because, you know, once you get committed, or once you get into a relationship, it’s over, you have to compromise, and you’re, you’re just gonna have to settle for less, because, you know, you’re, you’re in a relationship. And so we have found all of that is just bunk. It’s just not true at all.


[Alexx] (33:19 – 33:38)

And do you think it’s because you, like, was there a moment, a conversation that happened at some point in your relationship timeline, where you both said, we are going in head first, whenever there’s something I promise to say, and I promises, was it a, you know, a way away from started our relationship that way?


[Gay/Katie] (33:38 – 34:56)

We started our relationship with the big questions. Yeah, big questions. I just figured out how I sabotage relationships.


Like the months before I met Katie, I had a big revelation that, oh, either I or the other person doesn’t tell the truth about something. And out of that withhold, comes a withdrawal and a projection that there’s something wrong with the other person, therefore, I’m justified in my position. And so lack of telling the truth leads immediately to criticizing the other person and projection of something that’s going on in here.


And so that had just, I just dawned on me. And I realized that I wanted to make a commitment to a whole new kind of relationship. And that’s when I met Katie.


And so I was really on fire with this new discovery. And Katie had been making her own discoveries. And so we got together and we found that we were really in harmony about a lot of these basic ideas that we’re talking about now.


Of course, it took us, you know, from the time we met in 1980 till the time we walked on Oprah’s stage 11 years later, there was a whole lot of learning that had to go on between us.


[Alexx] (34:56 – 35:03)

And I was going to say, like, please tell us that it’s not like we both decided. So everything’s fabulous.


[Gay/Katie] (35:03 – 37:01)

Like, there was one day, about a year into our relationship, we were trying to get rid of the whole habit of criticizing each other. And I found myself right in the middle of criticizing Katie for something. And, but I had this revelation, I realized, oh, I sound irritated in my voice.


But what I’m feeling down in my belly is afraid. And I just blurted that out. I said, you know, I sound like I’m irritated with you.


But I’m feeling scared. And that immediately caught Katie’s attention. Yeah, that, that actually was the turning point, because I could hear him and feel him arriving in his actual experience in the moment and his feeling which he had been above and, you know, hadn’t really contacted, I could feel that he was scared.


And when I, and I, there was an opening, I can still remember, I can still remember where we were and how you looked. And, and then you opened up to what you were scared of, I said, I’m afraid I’m going to lose you. That was just what came out of my mouth.


And it was completely nothing that I had consciously thinking about. But it was obviously what was driving my tendency to criticize her. You know, when things would be good, I would mess it up by some form of criticizing.


And Katie would do the same thing oftentimes. And so that one moment, though, was great, because I realized that, oh, there’s all this other stuff down in here. I’m feeling like fear and sadness and things like that.


It’s not about what I think up here. What I think up here can lie to me half the time. You know, because I was one of those people that would talk myself out of my feelings by saying, oh, there’s nothing for you to be scared about, or there’s nothing for you to be mad about.


[Alexx] (37:02 – 37:03)

Yeah, chin up. And yeah.


[Gay/Katie] (37:03 – 39:53)

Yeah. And so that was a huge learning for me to begin to, that was what we coined, we coined this term we call microscopic truth, that we just we saw that it’s really not what you think about your feelings. It’s what they actually are like, I feel scared right now, or I feel angry, or I feel sad.


It’s just the getting what you’re saying out here, lined up with what’s going on in your body. That’s a massive undertaking in any relationship. But you sort of have to do it, if you’re going to be close to another person, because you have to go, you know, it has to be person to person contact, it can’t be head to head contact.


And what that does is open up something that I think all humans need is not only being able to be fully yourself in the presence of another person, but to be able to be affected by the presence of someone else, rather than barricading yourself and putting up boundaries, and those things that people talk about, that you really let the other person in. And I felt in that moment, when you said that you were scared, that you were letting me in. And, you know, because Gay’s very smart.


And so he could use all these intellectual things to, you know, sort of tell me the way things were, but I couldn’t really sense him behind that. And then when he let me in, it just magnified how attractive you were. But also the pathway to discovery is really endless.


It’s not like you arrive and then everything, you know, you can keep discovering. And even with I’m saying sad, if I go to the sensations that I’m experiencing in that moment, like I can feel tears behind my eyes, and I feel a little tightness in my throat. And I’m experiencing some heaviness, like somebody’s sitting on me in my chest.


Those not only really describe, because everybody has their own experience of sad. But in the moment, what I’m actually experiencing opens up a communication channel that is both intimate and also friendly and safe. And that safety, you know, a lot of the relationship experts talk about the necessity for safety, that people won’t open themselves until they feel safe.


And even though I’m the source of my own safety, if I am creating my safety, but I’m experiencing it being opposed, you know, or threatened in my relationship, I’m not going to really have that experience of just complete vulnerability, which I think really opens up avenues of discovery that nothing else can.


[Alexx] (39:54 – 40:12)

Hmm. And I’m sure this comes up a lot in the work you’ve done with couples. What is the scenario where one of them wants to do the work and the other one, maybe not so much, or at least or skeptical or like slow to move?




[Gay/Katie] (40:13 – 43:11)

Yeah, there was a study a while back where they simply asked couples who, and these happened to be heterosexual couples, who made the call to book the first session of couples therapy for you. And in 96% of the occasions, guess who made that call? The woman.


Yeah, the woman. And so a lot of times I think in a way that’s, men obviously need to catch up, but I think women are more sensitive to tremors in the environment. You know, they, women being more wired into the cosmic and to the vibrational nature of the universe itself are much more quick to, you know, like I cannot count the number of couples where the woman has said something like, I kept asking him if there’s anything wrong.


And he said, no, fine. I’m fine. Thank you.


I’m fine. Leave me alone. And I finally found out, she says after 16 years that he was having an affair the whole time, you know?


And so a lot of us have defined our lives out of hiding the truth rather than revealing the truth. And it’s not until you make a conscious decision in your relationships that you want the relationship to be about revealing rather than concealing, but you really have to choose that. And a lot of couples, only one person has chosen that.


And so that’s one of the first, when we work with couples, probably the first issue we work with is the issue of commitment. Do both of you want to be here? And not surprisingly in a good many situations, the starting place is no, I’m just here to prove that I want to solve this problem.


I don’t really want to solve the problem. I’m here to have you tell him that he’s wrong. I mean, I know that he’s wrong, but I need you to tell him he’s wrong because you’re the expert.


They’re looking for confirmation. That’s part of that whole codependent mechanism that people get into about trying to fix each other, rather than having a clear contract that says, I want to work on my stuff. And do you want to work on your stuff?


I actually would rather play with my stuff, but I can transform mine through play. And then are we willing to work on this stuff together or to play with this stuff together? You really have to make those choices.


And sometimes it takes people, even having traveled here from far away and paid a whole lot of money, they still want to try to convince us, you know, that they want to be here when they don’t really want to be here. And a lot of people too, have a great vested interest in hiding the truth. Like a lot of people will just fight tooth and nail to be even admit something like, I’m scared, or I feel sad.


[Alexx] (43:12 – 43:29)

And I imagine that would actually be quite a difficult journey for the person who initiated the counseling in the first place, because they thought this was going to be about blame and absolution. And finally, I, you know, I get to be right.


[Gay/Katie] (43:29 – 45:02)

Yeah. But the addiction to being right is, I don’t think we can underestimate how powerful that is for so many people that, you know, if I’m right, it sort of justifies my existence, you know, and if I somehow, you know, open up to something I’m feeling and something I don’t know, that is going to mean I’m weak or I’m insufficient, you know, I’m a bad person. And, you know, that argument between being right and the shame, you know, of perceived unlovability is almost always at the bottom, you know, something that I think is really unlovable, and he’s going to find out if I don’t keep hiding it.


And, you get more, well, they get committed first to saying, you know, to really experiencing and sharing what’s going on. And not only do they have to commit, but one thing we discovered is it’s not just committing, committing gets you into the game, but recommitting, that is the skill that gets you from where you are to where you want to go. And a lot of people, when they mess up, then blame themselves and go off track from the actual action they’re wanting to take.


So recommitting is the important move, blaming yourself or beating up on yourself, you know, or shaming yourself, that’s totally optional. That does not further your evolution. But people are still pretty attached to it because, you know, it has such angst in it and, you know, suffering.


[Alexx] (45:02 – 45:10)

And why are we so addicted to being victims? Why do we want to be the hard done by person?


[Gay/Katie] (45:10 – 48:43)

That’s a great question. It’s so futile. The philosopher G.I. Gurdjieff once said that human beings can give up just about every addiction, except their addiction to suffering. And, well, there’s a couple of reasons why that’s so popular, because, you know, picture yourself going down to the local pub this evening and starting a conversation with somebody after a few drinks and saying, oh, boy, my life really sucks. How’s yours going? The other person says, my life really sucks.


You’re off on a long conversation. And you wouldn’t believe what they did. And then really, what is your, you know, off they go.


But picture somebody down at the end of the bar saying, hey, I just realized I got where I am through a succession of poor choices, and I’m going to change it tonight. Right, everybody? Oh, move away.


Yeah. Yeah. Gosh.


Yeah. So we form. We form clubs, basically an unconscious club.


Around suffering. Connected to them through our suffering. Yeah.


Yeah. And that’s a tough addiction to give up because a lot of people think to let go of something means they have to let go of their affection for those people. And in fact, that’s one of the biggest limiting beliefs that I uncovered when I was working with people before I wrote The Big Leap is a lot of people feel so unconsciously hooked to the past and to their loyalty to people in the past that they don’t let themselves really get liberated right now in the moment to figure out where do I want to go in my life?


What do I want to be? I had a great example of that recently. I broke my leg.


Oh, yes. So that’s the beginning of the story. And the reason I’m telling you that is I ended up in a rehab center about a mile from here where I was doing physical therapy several times a day.


And one of the guys that I did physical therapy with was a person that if you looked at him, you’d think he’s a gang member. He had all these tattoos all over himself. And but he was this really good physical therapy assistant.


And so I struck up a conversation with him and he told me the amazing story that he had actually been in gangs. And when he was at a Thanksgiving dinner with his family and he had this moment of awareness where he realized that everybody in his family was either in jail, going to jail, had recently gotten out of jail, was worried about going to jail. You know, so they were there was criminal complexity among all of them.


And he said he had this moment of enlightenment where he realized, oh, that’s all in the past. The past doesn’t have to control our present or future. And so he told the people at the dinner what he realized.


And he was saying to them, basically, he went on this preaching spree of, hey, just because it’s always been that way, we don’t have to have it that way. Why don’t we the amount of energy we put into being criminals, we could put into something positive instead. So great speech.


Did everybody at dinner stand up and applaud and carry him off on their shoulders? You are weird.


[Alexx] (48:43 – 48:45)

You are strange. You are ostracized.


[Gay/Katie] (48:47 – 48:49)

Probably for disloyalty.


[Alexx] (48:49 – 48:49)

Yeah, disloyalty.


[Gay/Katie] (48:50 – 49:12)

And but the thing was, he decided not to let that stop him. So he went back to school and went to junior college out here to get a degree. And then he was heading toward.


In fact, I ended up writing him a letter of recommendation to get into his physical therapy program. You know, I said, you know, this guy is a hidden gem. You know, look beneath the surface, you’ll see a heart of gold there.


[Alexx] (49:13 – 49:45)

Well, and doesn’t that bring out something beautiful, Gay, that we we need that sponsor, that mentor, that person who says you are totally on the right path. Let me see if I can help you change course here. Those people are so important when you’re really trying to change something quite systemic about an old tribal story or the people you grew up with or the previous beliefs that weren’t serving you.


That letter would have meant the world to him or to someone who sees you. Yes.


[Gay/Katie] (49:46 – 51:54)

Yes. You know, it’s a person that can see that underneath whatever personal story you’ve lived through is the essence of you. You know, like I’m eternally grateful to one of my professors way back, Dwight Webb, who really saw my essence that I did.


I don’t know. I love to write, but I also love this new field I’m in of counseling psychology. And then he said, why don’t you write about counseling psychology?


What a wacky idea. It’s crazy, but I had not ever considered that. And so I wrote a sheaf of poems, I think 37 poems about different stages of counseling and therapy.


And I turned them in as my master’s degree thesis and they accepted that. But the cool thing was three of those got published in a counseling journal, which then led me. So it led me to a whole lifetime of publication, getting published with just three poems.


I got familiar with the publication process and wrote my first book. And so it was amazing how just one little contact like that can set forth a whole successful life of doing something completely different. Really seeing other people with a quality of appreciation.


And one of the definitions of appreciation that I really love is bringing a sensitive awareness. So it’s not a rah-rah, you know, you’re a great person. It’s really letting yourself feel into the other person and reflecting to them something about their essence.


And when that happens, it really can open up whole new worlds, as Gabe was saying. And it’s, I think, a gift that we can give to anybody around us, that we don’t have to have an established relationship. We can just be looking to appreciate everybody as an evolving work of art, rather than an improvement project.


[Alexx] (51:55 – 52:31)

I love doing that. It is one of my favorite things to just recognize either a, like a glint of a zone of genius that someone has, or just something that they’ve done really artfully. That might be really simple, like serving a drink in a bar or helping wrap a dress at the counter.


It could be something so simple, but they do something so beautifully. I have to recognize it. I cannot bottle it up.


Because if we actually notice, well, how awful to withhold it, because it feels so good to get it out as well.


[Gay/Katie] (52:32 – 53:44)

For you and for them. And, you know, a lot of people have been being polite and, you know, not wanting to get over in other people’s spaces. And I think also a lot of people feel scared today to say anything, especially to a stranger.


You just don’t know what kind of, whether you’re going to be, you know, opening the hornet’s nest there. But I find that when I’m moving around the world, I do something I’ll call presence connect play. I do my best to be here.


And then I see how I can connect. And sometimes it’s just catching somebody’s eye, or they’ll do something that I can comment on, like, wow, the way you just flipped that, that was amazing. And, and, and then we have a little bit of, of play a little bit of collaboration of recognizing each other as humans.


And to me, that’s just, you know, that’s the best of what we can do as humans, rather than this is the way you ought to do your life. And I know, and I’m going to tell you that, that each of us, I think, are creating ourselves all the time. And when we have somebody recognize something unique about us, Ooh, that’s, you know, that’s a tremendous gift.


[Alexx] (53:44 – 54:12)

It really is. And, and Gay, how does that play out in workforces in the, I mean, you’ve done so much work in organizations over your career. And I almost want to bring back something we were talking about previously around, you know, I have to be right in this thing and not recognizing and connecting more in workplaces and creating more hierarchical safety, which can often hinder us, right?


[Gay/Katie] (54:14 – 57:25)

Yes. And it’s, there are several things I’ve learned out of working with a lot of high level business folks over the years. One is that you can be incredibly brilliant and insightful at something like engineering or marketing or whatever it is you’re brilliant at and be absolutely clueless about the rest of the world, you know?


And so it always amazes me that a person can run an organization like that has a hundred thousand people, but then has trouble going home at night and saying to his partner, I feel sad about something, or I was angry about this, or I felt scared today. Just any kind of little personal sharing was just so closed off for him and many people like him. And so that leads to a problem that I talk about a lot in the big leap.


I call it the upper limit problem. Yes. In Australia, you have your own good version of that, the tall poppy syndrome, and we have it up here too.


It’s all over the world, but the idea that we tend to sabotage ourselves when we kind of poke our head out of the fog of our old programming and start looking at life in a new way, you know, oftentimes we punish ourselves by creating an argument and like one of the, you know, like CEO of a corporation engineers a deal that makes his company a hundred million dollars, then goes home that night, and this is a real story, goes home that night and starts the worst argument with his wife that they’ve had in their 12 years of marriage and his kids get involved and everything. So he goes from the elation of doing something, you know, being a captain of industry and doing this massive thing for good, and then can’t go to sleep that night because they trash each other out at home. That’s the upper limit problem.


That’s what we need to take care of in ourselves, that tendency to sabotage ourselves when things start going better. And so in the big leap, I talk about a bunch of good ways to do that, but one good way is looking at the limiting beliefs that are underneath it. And a big one being a fundamental belief that I don’t deserve the good things of life.


I’m fundamentally flawed in some way, and therefore I don’t deserve to have love. I don’t deserve to have money. I don’t deserve to have peace of mind and peace of heart and peace of body.


So those old limiting beliefs until we face them, we started out talking about facing today, you have to face those limiting beliefs and say, hmm, what is it in here that’s holding me back and in here? And so if you get used to asking yourself those big questions, life goes a lot better because, you know, if we go around in a state of obliviousness all the time, we’re going to keep bumping into things.


[Alexx] (57:25 – 57:47)

And I mean, what a recurring theme, even though we’ve talked about three quite separate chunky topics already, is that self-awareness really is a huge piece that threads the personal growth and joyful experience that awaits if we’re brave enough to sign up.


[Gay/Katie] (57:48 – 58:51)

Well, one of the things that some of our colleagues are experimenting with taking our principles and translating them into business is they have a concept that they call above or below the line. And one of a basic question is where are you located? Like where are you located right now?


Are you defending and, you know, and being right? Or are you open to learning? Are you open?


So are you closed or are you open? And if you recognize, oh, I’m defensive right now, there are lots of things that you can do, for example, opening your breathing, that begin to choosing to be open to learning, demonstrating that by asking for feedback from someone. So the shift from closed into that open mindset, the growth mindset, is something that everybody can learn to do.


It makes a huge difference in, you know, how you then organize your choices in your life.


[Alexx] (58:51 – 59:54)

Huge, huge. And as I was hearing you talk about the upper limit problem just before Gay in organizations and what that can look like, I remember I left my first career and wanted to be a singer. I really wanted to explore my art and sing.


And I remember I had this incredible opportunity to have a residency at a really special bar Thursday nights, singing with a DJ in French. I mean, it was just a dream because I’m half French. So it was really special.


And I used to feel like I was getting tonsillitis every Thursday morning, but like without fail. And I don’t even, I didn’t even realize back then what that was. But what would you say to younger Alexx to work through that?


Because younger Alexx had no idea and actually stopped singing professionally, which, yeah, that’s something.


[Gay/Katie] (59:54 – 1:00:21)

Young Alexx, I’d want to find out, hmm, what is it, the fear that your tonsils are expressing? Hmm, what’s that? Let’s give your tonsils voice.


What are you really afraid of? And let’s face that. So you don’t have to keep having your unconscious mess with your tonsils and your throat on the days you want to speak or sing.


[Alexx] (1:00:21 – 1:00:41)

Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe around, am I good enough judgment?


I mean, because singing on a stool with a spotlight is just about as vulnerable as you can be. And I think it might have had something to do with a piece around judgment and whether I deserve to be there.


[Gay/Katie] (1:00:41 – 1:02:13)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.


I remember on the other end of the spectrum, I remember, and this could console you a little bit because even famous singers have these kinds of issues. I got a call one time from a neighbor of ours when we lived over on the beach who lived up the way and he was having a panic attack and he wanted to come over and talk about it. And I remember standing out on the balcony with him as we worked on what it was about.


Turned out he was going down the next day to get his own star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame where you put your hands in the concrete and get celebrated. And so it had set off this panic in him of I don’t deserve this. And then he saw where his handprints were going to be next to some famous actor, you know, John Wayne or somebody like that.


And he really panicked. Oh, my God, I’m an imposter. I’m no John Wayne.


But, you know, we’ve all got some version of it, whether we’re going to the Grammys or we’re going down to the local pub on Thursday night to sing. It’s, you know, we see this possibility in ourselves, what I call we get a glimpse of our genius zone. And then the quest in life begins to be to express that.


Well, in your case, maybe the full expression of it wasn’t through singing, but it’s doing what you’re doing now.


[Alexx] (1:02:13 – 1:02:16)

Exactly. I found a way to use my voice. That’s for sure.


[Gay/Katie] (1:02:17 – 1:03:33)

Yeah. Another way to use your voice. And singers are a dime a dozen, whereas people who can do what you do are not, you know.


So if you put the average singer in your position, they would stare dumbly at the television screen for an hour. But you have managed to use your voice in an articulate way that helps people and people like to listen to it. So blessings upon you for finding a good outlet for your voice.


But still, you know, let’s maybe go down to the pub some night and sing anyway, you know, really go down there. Katie’s like, you go do that. You go do that.


Yeah. So you can celebrate the different aspects of your genius. And even though you may be not using it, you could use it and you can use your voice in a variety of ways.


And what comes to me is that at the base of that, there’s a conviction that I’m basically unlovable. And so I’m imagining that down underneath that, you know, I’m really not a very good singer and it means I’m not a very good person. And I’m just going to not even phrase that.


And I’ll just let my body take over. And when you start sharing directly what you’re experiencing, then your body symptoms don’t have to do that for you. They don’t have to speak for you.




[Alexx] (1:03:34 – 1:03:55)

And that comes to the thinking around, like if you don’t gently tune in and raise your own awareness and align your feelings with your brain and what you’re feeling and what you’re saying, then the universe will step in and do it for you in a much harsher way to make you pay attention.


[Gay/Katie] (1:03:56 – 1:05:19)

Yes. And always remember the way the human brain is constructed, the thinking part, like if you compare it, it’s about the same shape and size as a good sized grapefruit. And the thinking part of the brain is like the outside rind on the grapefruit.


The juicy inner stuff is where a lot of the problems occur that cause us problems, because there’s where all our fears are down in the juicy stuff, our dreams are down in the juicy stuff. And we need to get used to being body minds, not just a body and a mind, but body minds, because, you know, one of the evolutionary tasks of our time is to admit our bodies into our minds and admit our minds into our bodies so that we’re all one thing. And then ultimately to capstone it with having a spiritual awareness at the center of ourselves so that we are not only aware of ourselves as persons and people in relationship, but also members of the larger community of the earth and the cosmos.


And if we start thinking of ourselves that way, then we make better decisions because we’re owning the whole, rather than just coming from a small part of ourselves.


[Alexx] (1:05:19 – 1:05:52)

Absolutely. And work, an idea that I’ve taken from almost everything that I’ve read of both of yours or watched is that we had relationships and tribes to survive once upon a time. But that’s not the invitation being served up to us.


Currently, as we head into the future, it’s not actually about survival. We’re going to do much better if we realize, oh, wow, this can be about creation. Now we don’t have to get stuck in that survival place all the time.


[Gay/Katie] (1:05:53 – 1:06:26)

Creation and co-creation that there’s this other thing that begins to happen when, when two or more people are expressing their genius. I like to say that they become members of a big orchestra. And that as I’m really sounding my own instrument fully, I take place, my place among all of the other instruments and together we can make incredible music.


You know, if everybody, you know, I’m not complaining that I’m not the oboist, you know, I’m over here with my piccolo or whatever. I’d be the drummer.


[Alexx] (1:06:26 – 1:06:31)

I was the percussionist at school in band. Yeah, I had to make all the noise.


[Gay/Katie] (1:06:32 – 1:06:38)

Well, we’re getting a little tight on time here. Any final big boomer questions you want to ask us? We are.


[Alexx] (1:06:38 – 1:06:49)

So Gay, I would love to ask you to issue us a curiosity challenge around our upper limits. And then Katie, I’m going to ask you for a challenge after Gay has shared.


[Gay/Katie] (1:06:50 – 1:07:50)

Well, let me let me give you a wonder question and a commitment. Wonder is a superpower that human beings can master. So a good wonder question would be, hmm, how can I bring forth the maximum amount of my genius every day of my life?


So living in a, hmm, a wondering about how you could open up to more and more genius in your life. And the commitment would be to say a commitment around the same issue, like I commit to bringing forth more and more of my genius every day of my life. I commit to that.


So get that heartfelt commitment to bringing forth more genius. And then watch what happens. You never can tell what’s going to come forth after that.


After all, 44 years ago, we would have never imagined the life that we would end up with when we were sitting in our little apartment, probably sitting on the floor because we couldn’t afford much pillows, pillows.


[Alexx] (1:07:51 – 1:08:06)

They’re comfy. I love it. And I love that in your book.


I can’t remember if it’s Big Leap or Big Leap Year, Gay, that you suggest post-it notes, stick it like visual, like put that stuff everywhere. So you remember to commit every single day.


[Gay/Katie] (1:08:07 – 1:08:15)

Yes. Yeah, because it’s one thing to have a big opening, but then you have to systematically day after day after day, keep showing up that way.


[Alexx] (1:08:15 – 1:08:42)

Yeah, recommitting. Yeah, I call it the don’t have the conference effect on yourself when you have like an exciting developmental moment. Don’t go home from the conference and go back to normal, like actually stay in that and grow it.


And Katie, can I get you to now share with us an invitation to start bringing our whole body into our daily thinking?


[Gay/Katie] (1:08:44 – 1:09:25)

So the question is, like for any issue, like bringing my whole self into my daily life would be, how am I experiencing that in my body right now? So when I ask myself that, you know, how can I bring my whole self in? The first thing I notice is that my breathing expands.


So, and I let myself play with that. And when I’m connecting to, I’m not just thinking about it, I’m letting myself experience, then that experience begins to expand. And it can be like the garden that is then, you know, blooming up in my mind.


[Alexx] (1:09:26 – 1:09:49)

So special, so good. Thank you both for spending this hour together and enlightening so many of us and inviting us to be more of ourselves. That’s what I really take from today and to not be afraid in putting that out there because the magic happens when you start being vulnerable.


[Gay/Katie] (1:09:51 – 1:10:02)

Yeah. Well, thank you. And thanks so much for the quality of your presence.


It’s really been a delight to be with you. Thank you. Go out there and have a big gob of Vegemite now.


[Alexx] (1:10:03 – 1:13:01)

I hate this stuff. I hope you loved today’s show as much as I loved bringing it to you. I want to remind you that if you are someone who craves a low-tox community that is judgment-free, full of empowerment, has health professionals and building health professionals that can support you, as well as me in there answering questions multiple times a week, I want to invite you to join the low-tox club.


For the price of less than a cup of coffee a month, you have an annual membership for $49 Australian. So it’s about $30 US or Euro that allows you to have a member master class every single month with a health professional or global expert from the podcast, where we have them to ourselves for an hour to ask questions and deep dive further. You have the beautiful supportive chat group.


You have Q and A’s with me, me answering questions. We read books and talk about them and a whole bunch more. You can head to, hit the explore tab and join the club is the very first option on that list. Of course, we have over 10 evergreen courses that you can jump into anytime, whether it’s navigating everyday low-tox swaps with our go low-tox signature course, whether you have kids and you’re wanting to know how to best support them with our low-tox kids course, whether you’re planning a family and looking at a healthy low-tox preconception journey, reducing inflammation, especially the chronic kind with our inflammation ninja course, many, many other courses.


You can again, head to, hit the courses tab and you’ll see all of the options, which includes a business course, my low-tox method program. A lot of people don’t know, but I was doing a lot before starting low-tox life in 2009. And I was a business consultant across hospitality, health, retail and cosmetics.


I have been in business consulting for a very long time. So I absolutely adore helping people move into the low-tox space or develop their low-tox businesses. So that’s a way I can support you.


And then of course, there’s our wonderful social media communities at lowtoxlife on Instagram. And of course the website with over 250 gluten-free recipes, blogs, downloadable PDFs to help you navigate wanting to get rid of synthetic fragrances in your school or office. I could go on.


So head to, see what takes your interest or fancy. And thank you so much for being a part of our podcast community. I love, love, love reading your reviews.


I appreciate every follow and subscribe. And I want to just remind you to finish off that if there’s anything you heard that you found interesting from a medical or scientific perspective, it is intended as education only, please always chat to a health professional who knows you and your situation best. I’ll see you next week.



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