About this show:
As with all things, I believe in finding people who can help us navigate the nuanced way forward – is there a way our kids can healthily grow up in public?
Devorah Heitner PhD has been asking this with curiosity both as a parent and a researcher and in today’s show, we unpack exactly that question. Her book “Growing up in Public” is a must read so that we understand our kid’s social dynamics today better, and so that we know where boundary and protection are required, as well as curiosity and patience.
Kids are growing up more in public than ever. While we discuss meaningful ways that we can ensure they get to live childhoods more connected to each other than they are to their screens, I genuinely feel it’s important to have a conversation about the world that exists and how best to navigate it, than to simply wish it weren’t like it was and ban everything. The tech algorithms favour fear and outrage and so nuanced explorations on this topic are hard to find.
Please help me amplify it.
Dr. Heitner’s work has appeared in the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and CNN Opinion. She has a Ph.D. in Media/Technology & Society from Northwestern University and has taught at DePaul and Northwestern. She is delighted to be raising her own teenager and she lives with her family in Chicagoland.
Letting kids use phone during the school day? Bad idea
Using screens as babysitting to save on childcare costs? No judgement. It’s complicated with multiple things at play as to how many families got there.
Kids needing more places to hang and connect than home or shopping centre mall? HECK yes.
I hope you find the show useful.
Alexx Stuart
Founder of Low Tox Life and the Low Tox movement
Join me on Insta @lowtoxlife
Questions we explore in the show:
- Can we just with the ‘banning social media’ in under 16s conversation happening at the moment – upsides/downsides/nuance/factors to consider?
- What is a fear-based reaction/conversation around growing up in public vs an inclusive and empowering one?
- When you did your PhD what did you find about how media has changed and how it’s impacting families and kids the most?
- You talk about Gotcha moments, likes and attention being the focus for today’s kids and these are things a lot of parents are really worried will have lasting impacts on them and their mental well-being.
- Something I’ve been noticing is how many seemingly dysfunctional things kids say to each other – like they haven’t been properly socialised or something – not enough IRL time. My son tells me things that are happening at school or camp and I’m like “How is that something a kid is saying to another kid?” Any advice to help our kids be sympathetic, compassionate citizens in a new ‘more newly connected/less traditionally connected way?
- A lot of parents worry for their kids that they feel they need to up the ante on dares, what they’re prepared to do, how much of their bodies they need to show to be noticed/get traction on digital platforms and, therefore, in person/by reputation: How can we model ‘healthy sharing’ on socials if they want to be on there…
- Are there any aspects of social media the data is showing us we need to be most mindful of as parents/carers/teachers? It’s easy to take quick, disciplinary action – the harder work seems to be healthy modelling when it comes to socials, given kids will usually find a way if it means being included/cool with their tribe of friends… any advice here?
- And when it comes to inclusion/exclusion – exclusion is nothing new for a kid to deal with – why does it feel so much worse today? Is it because we don’t just hear about it, we also see all the pictures/live stream/comment threads about blow-by-blow what they’re missing out on? How do we help with FOMO?
- I’ve heard heartbreaking stories of kids who sent private pics that went public that spiralled them into depression, or worse… it’s every parent’s worst fear that a brief moment of lack of consequential thinking will be their kid’s demise/haunt them or follow them around online forever – what kinds of conversations do we need to be having as families and communities to foster a preventative approach here.
- You’ve worked with a lot of families through your courses and schools/companies – have you got a story or two to share about how people have found ways to transition to more healthy ways of connecting and grounding in this hyper-public, extreme-connection landscape?
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About Devorah Heitner PhD:
Dr. Devorah Heitner is the author of Growing Up in Public: Coming of Age in a Digital World and Screenwise: Helping Kids Thrive (and Survive) in Their Digital World. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and CNN Opinion. She has a Ph.D. in Media/Technology & Society from Northwestern University and has taught at DePaul and Northwestern. She is delighted to be raising her own teenager and she lives with her family in Chicagoland. You can follow her on Substack and on Instagram @devorahheitnerphd.
Connect with Devorah on the following platforms;
Instagram— @devorahheitnerphd
Website — https://devorahheitner.com/
More about this month’s sponsors:
Thank you to this month’s sponsors for partnering with our show and helping you make your swaps with their special offer:
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Title show track, by LIOR.
Love the podcast music? You will hear excerpts from Lior’s track “Caught Up” – go check it out on iTunes or Spotify if you want to hear the whole song or album, Scattered Reflections. Co-written with Cameron Deyell, it’s a great song and I love the reflective energy of it – perfect for the show, right? Enjoy. Lior is always touring, so do check out his website. It is wonderful to hear him sing live, trust me.
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If you would love reading like me or you just simply want to go through the full transcript, you can check below.
[Alexx Stuart] (0:00 – 11:32)Growing up in public, that is what our kids are doing today. That’s what we’re doing as adults and Devorah Heitner, PhD, is going to help us navigate this world and it ain’t all fear-based on today’s show. Hello and welcome to the Low Tox Life podcast.
I am Alexx Stuart, your host, and today is show 401. I want to welcome you. I founded the Low Tox Movement thinking, let’s help people make some healthy swaps with a few products, but it blew out into books and podcasts and 10 e-courses and a beautiful Low Tox Club membership, and here we are now into the 400s of the podcast, just having hit eight years, so we’re now in our ninth year, and also six million downloads, so a huge thank you to everyone who has listened either for a long time or a little time, and if you haven’t given the show a five-star review yet on the platform that you listen to it on, I would so, so appreciate that.
That is like tipping your bartender for a nice cocktail, and it’s a lovely way for people to immediately trust whether they should listen to a show that they haven’t heard of before and to get it bumped up those lists on various podcast algorithms in terms of what they’re previewing and showing, so I genuinely appreciate it. Today we’re talking kids and tech. You might be wondering why are we doing another show on kids and tech three months after we did one with Jocelyn Brewer, psychologist, and it is because a lot of parents were really passionate about this idea that there might be a positive way forward, what do we need to know, and I came across Devorah Heitner’s work.
She has a PhD in media, technology, and society studies, and she got that from Northwestern University. She’s taught at that university and a couple of others, and she’s written a couple of books on kids and tech and social media, and her latest book, Growing Up in Public, is brilliant. I genuinely want to show you people while the internet and the big tech algorithms show you super scary people very often because that is what creates outrage and intense fear.
I want to show you the people who know how to have nuanced conversations about this stuff, the tech, the socials, it ain’t going away, and it’s so important for us to feel empowered in this space to acknowledge what some of the negative aspects are, and there are negative aspects, of course, but to also acknowledge what some of the things are that might be missing as communities that are ensuring that we find it really hard to move our kids off the screens.
Something huge that came up for me as a call to action out of all of this is to work much harder in my local community to find ways for our kids to gather and play sport for free in parks. There is so much space in our local park, and yet we don’t have a skate park, we don’t have a little basketball half court, nothing. We have tennis courts, but you have to be able to pay for them, show me the teen who has got $35 an hour, or the parent, for that matter, who can just drop that every day if they want their kids to show up with friends and move around.
We have to do better. So for me, that was a huge part of what came out of today personally. I can’t wait to see what drops for you.
I really want to keep this conversation going. If you’re not in the Lotox club, which you can join any time, hit the explore tab at lotoxlife.com and it’s the very first option, you can check it out. I still want to hear from you, DMs, share the show and share a fact that you thought, wow, that’s great, I’m taking this away, I’m doing this.
Devorah’s full of good ideas and also just really pragmatic about what the situation is and how we can embrace the world we live in and not be terrified by it, but also make it safe and as joyful as possible. You’re not going to grow up and feel super excited and happy all the time. I think this is a part of it.
Some of the stuff happening on socials is simply just a recorded version of what has been happening for millennia while teens play musical chairs socially and get dropped by groups. All of that’s happening, it’s just that we see it a bit more and it can be amplified. It’s almost like there’s not a lot that’s new happening, but because of the way it’s happening, we need a better vocab for dealing with things and keeping our kids safe and happy and connected in real interpersonal relationships as well.
I’ll hook into that in a little minute. I have three offers. Of course, this one’s for the Aussies, but I have an international one for you this week as well.
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All right. So those are our offers. LOTOX-LIFE is always going to be the code now for anything on the podcast.
So you don’t need to remember the code. Hope that helps. Let’s head into this show.
Can’t wait to see what you think. Enjoy. Devorah, hello.
How are you? I am good. Thank you.
I am so excited to have this chat. We have wonderful psychologist locally who helps us not be quite so freaked out about tech who I’ve had on the show. And then I saw your book come up and watched a couple of your keynotes online.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, we need to flesh this subject out even more because what I keep seeing is a whole lot of older generation fear. And we just want to put it in a box and put it away and keep everyone banned and off. And quite a few extreme energy words, I guess.
And it reminded me of Footloose, one of my favourite movies as a kid. And it was all about banning dancing. And I’m like, well, there’s some really good things about dancing.
So could there be some grey area around tech? And I was just after seeing your book, I thought we have to discuss this. So where did it become obvious to you that this was a nuanced topic that you wanted to help people wade through the complexities of it and all the different kind of shades, if you like.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (11:33 – 12:57)I used to teach college when I got out of my media studies graduate degree. So I studied television and media history and did a doctorate and wrote actually a book about that stuff. And then was teaching college.
So I was teaching 18 to 22 year olds kind of when social media was really breaking out around 2006, 7, 8. And I saw my students really get very emotionally invested and some of them had grown up with MySpace, some of them were using Facebook. Also just texting really changed things.
I remember the first younger people in my family who would want to text me and I was like, what is this texting? Why don’t you just call, right? So I’m shoved up the mouth as a younger Gen Xer that like my millennial cousins would want to text.
And initially when I first was able to, I still didn’t really get it. So I just wanted to understand what are these people experiencing? What are kids experiencing?
What are the milestones of growing up in the digital age? And then I also became a mother in 2009 while I was still teaching at the university level. So I had my 18 to 22 year old undergraduate students, then I had my own baby at home and I was thinking about, should I be sharing his picture on Facebook?
And so many other parents were asking me questions because I research on this topic. And I just recognise there’s a real need for empathetic, curious conversations with kids on this topic and kind of translation to adults so that caregivers and educators can really understand what kids are dealing with.
[Alexx Stuart] (12:58 – 13:45)Yeah, a hundred percent. It’s the understanding piece and you just can’t know what the next generation is going to be hit with. And, you know, I recently as six, seven months ago said to a friend, AI, do I really have to like figure that whole world out?
And then now seven months later, I’m like using a couple of AI tools and I’m like, oh, there’s some positives around this. And that, how do we actually mitigate the risks of the negative sides of things? And, you know, information is fascinating as a subject, let alone trying to dissect what is true, what is not, what is right, what is wrong.
It seems to become harder and harder with the more two, three, four way conversations we have online, right?
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (13:45 – 13:46)A hundred percent. [Alexx Stuart] (13:47 – 14:06)
And so let’s talk about this big push by lots of schools, governments, influencers, researchers to ban social media below 16. This is kind of getting tossed around a lot. What are your thoughts on that? [Devorah Heitner PhD] (14:07 – 14:08)
What’s the voting age there? [Alexx Stuart] (14:08 – 14:10)
Voting age here is 18. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (14:11 – 15:11)
Same for us. And so I think it’s anti-democratic to keep kids off social until 16 because then you’re really not giving them a very long time to learn the ropes before their voting age. So I think it’s really important to think about what do kids need to be prepared to be citizens.
And if you’re expected to be an adult at 18, for us, that’s also, you know, signing up for the draft. It’s a lot of responsibility. It’s legal responsibility for your own actions.
It’s being tried as an adult. Then to keep kids off of social media until they’re 16 is giving them very few learning years to figure this out. And I also think it’s silencing activists.
We see a lot of 14 and 15 year old activists around climate issues and other important global and local issues. And I don’t want to not hear from them. I think if a 14 year old has something to say, whether that’s on Twitter X, whether that’s Instagram, whether that’s TikTok, I want to hear their voice.
[Alexx Stuart] (15:11 – 15:32)Wow. Yeah. Great perspective.
And I feel like it’s one that’s not being heard as much at the moment because we’re so loudly saying, oh, this is terrible. And let’s unpack what might be terrible. What do you see as the primary negative aspects of young kids on socials?
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (15:32 – 16:54)Okay. So obviously the social media world is a comparison machine and kids are always wired to be comparing themselves to others. It’s part of the tween and teen experience.
It’s part of growing up, uh, whether or not you go to school or, you know, kids that kids are very developmentally wired to be looking at where am I in, where am I out, where am I included or excluded? How am I like everyone? Even if you have a kid who’s like, I’m the weird kid, you, you, you better believe they care what the other weird kids think of how weird they are.
You know, when somebody says they don’t care what anybody thinks, that’s very likely to not be quite accurate, right? Especially if that person is a teenager, uh, in general, he doesn’t care what other people think of us though. And so let’s come back to that because all of us care if we get likes, if we get responded to, but the fact that it’s quantified in social media is exquisitely sent at this exquisitely sensitive moment for teenagers is really tricky, right?
It’s harder to deal with all the external markers of popularity and acceptance and in-group out-group stuff at school, whether you’re sitting at the popular lunch table or whatever it is. And social media is going to really bring that home for you. You’re going to see how many followers you have, how many likes you got on a certain post.
And that’s tricky. That is absolutely tricky stuff.
[Alexx Stuart] (16:54 – 17:52)Yeah. And, and so what kinds of conversations should we be having with our kids around likes and followers? And cause something that my son Bandy’s about and he just turned 15 is, um, oh yeah, you know, he’s one of the cool kids.
So like there’s all these labels already that exist at school and, um, that they using, and he’s already othered himself from being cool. And I’m like, well, you’re just cool in your own way. Like, you know, and your friends think you’re cool.
So like I sometimes think, oh gosh, am I getting the conversation wrong? What should I be saying? And, um, when it comes to socials and growing up with people seeing your activity online and what you’re posting and what you’re sharing, um, I tend to think like you find to be on there, but maybe just be a bit of an observer the first couple of years, rather than feeling like you have to do anything.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (17:55 – 18:37)I mean, I think being an observer is actually to some degree kind of painful though, on social, I would love its voices. So, I mean, I think it’s important that we balance our kind of stalker side with, you know, the sort of silent stalker side of social media, where we’re browsing other people’s lives with sharing and, and also recognise like, is this actually bringing me connection? Bring us that, that joy.
Right. So I do think it’s important for kids, uh, to have some balance in their lives to have in-person time. You know, I always wish like our town doesn’t really have a central place where kids can hang out a little bit, the library, but there’s not like a skate park or the beach.
We don’t have that either.
[Alexx Stuart] (18:38 – 18:39)It’s awful. Yeah. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (18:40 – 19:26)
It’s, it’s a problem because I think the kids need a place to just drop by and see if anybody’s hanging out. And that, that place is kind of online. And I wish that there was a little bit more in-person sort of space that was welcoming and accessible and free that didn’t cost money.
Right. They didn’t have barriers where kids aren’t overpoliced and criminalised as well. I think that’s really important.
And if I’m talking to a kid about likes, I just want to emphasise to them how much the algorithms and the design features of social media can be manipulative, right? It’s important for kids to understand that because sometimes we can tap into adolescents wanting to be smarter than the designers, right? The fact that they, they, they, they know they’re smarter than you, right?
Your 15 year old knows, he knows way more. I have a 15 year old too, I’m sure.
[Alexx Stuart] (19:26 – 19:27)So much more. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (19:28 – 19:43)
So much more, but they also want to feel like they’re smarter than Meta or they’re smarter than TikTok or they’re smarter than YouTube. And that is helpful if they understand the design features and then they realise, Oh, Hey, I still want my life. Like I don’t want my whole life to be scrolling YouTube. [Alexx Stuart] (19:45 – 19:45)
Yeah. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (19:46 – 19:56)
So I recognise the algorithm’s going to send me more of the same things that I like, but at a certain point I’m going to turn it off, take a break, go do something else. Fits my goals, fits my interests. [Alexx Stuart] (19:56 – 20:26)
Fits my goals, fits my interests is huge, right? And having enough time away from tech and away from watching everybody do stuff, that you actually get to do things and kick goals yourself. So do you see that as being a key thing to notice and plan for, discuss and help kids understand the difference?
Between watching and doing.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (20:26 – 21:21)Understand the difference between what they really care about with the piece. Well, I think we do want to really be thinking about like creating versus consuming. We want to be thinking about how can we be an author in this space, a creator in this space.
And sometimes we are just going to be consuming, but then are we consuming something that fills us with joy? Maybe it’s just like a silly cat video, but it’s fun. But at a certain point, if I’m just scrolling real estate and feeling bad that I forgot to be a zillionaire, or if I’m scrolling other people’s vacations and I feel bad that I didn’t get to do something like that this summer, that’s not as helpful as thinking about what’s aspirational out there, what’s helpful, what ideas am I getting that I can use in my own life?
And then what’s my commitment to making sure I spend as much time implementing this in my life? You can search productivity tools all day, for example, but like what’s your plan for actually producing something with them?
[Alexx Stuart] (21:22 – 21:47)What is your plan? So true. I noticed he was watching a lot of cooking videos, my boy, and I was like, what are you going to cook?
And then it was just like a little light came on. It’s like, oh yeah, I could start copying these chefs and I could start like bringing this into my kitchen. And it created a love for cooking Asian cuisine that we benefit from very regularly and I’m very happy about.
So I really think…
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (21:47 – 22:26)That is a great example. Exactly. And we can follow our kid’s interests and do a little facilitating.
Like maybe your kid is really into cooking, but he’s never been to the grocery store. I mean, I’m not, your kid probably buy groceries, but here, you know, in the US, I know a lot of kids who like are pretty clueless about buying groceries. So it’s like, how can you kind of build on that and say, okay, well, so you want to make that toast with curry.
Like, here’s what you need to go do first. And then what tools do you need for that? How can you prepare for it?
How can you clean up? Right. And what a delicious way literally to kind of explore your interests.
And he’s also going to be a very popular roommate at university.
[Alexx Stuart] (22:28 – 22:39)He’s already talking about like, if I get a jaffle maker and an air fryer, I can actually make meals and sell them because I hear the cafeterias are terrible. And I’m like, okay, that’s quite entrepreneurial. Love that. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (22:44 – 23:42)
Yeah. I think our kids also are literally entrepreneurial too. A lot of kids are making businesses.
And you know, my, one of my cousins is building stuff on Etsy that she’s selling and there are all kinds of online marketplaces. Again, we want to make sure that kids are, you know, financially literate before they go into becoming a seller in these spaces. We want to make sure they’re of an age where it’s legal to do that.
They may need to set up their account with you. So what a great experience to see that they can create something that people want and make, you know, make a small business as a young person. Again, this is why I think to limit, you know, sort of all online interaction for the under 16s is a very limiting idea because it really does keep kids from doing things like online entrepreneurship.
And again, that’s not saying kids should just step into it, you know, a young age without adult supervision and mentorship, but I also don’t think we should block that channel completely.
[Alexx Stuart] (23:43 – 24:04)A hundred percent. And so the message I’m hearing that I really like is just no phones during school time at all. Like none.
Can’t go into the bag. Can’t check your phone. Can’t check your socials.
You are here to be here and to learn and to connect like that one I like. What are your thoughts on that?
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (24:05 – 24:50)I do really like a lot of the spaces that kids hang out in. I mean, it just depends, right? It depends how they’re using it.
I mean, Discord is a space that I see a lot of kids using in positive ways, but I have heard negative stories. Any app, any online space, even something like Roblox, you know, can be positive or can be negative. There can be bullying or there can be things that are really cool happening in there.
So we want to equip kids with strategies for getting out of a difficult interaction. We want to make sure our kids know that they’re allowed to leave. If somebody’s being mean, this is so huge because kids think they have to be nice.
You know, if someone’s being mean to you online with like skedaddle, close out of the window, you can report them if you want to. But the most important thing is to take care of yourself by getting out of this situation.
[Alexx Stuart] (24:51 – 25:36)Yeah, for sure. Okay. So something I’ve been noticing a lot, just being out and about, is young girls taking really sexy pictures of themselves really, really young.
So like we could say that is over-sexualising at a very young age before you’re actually having any intimate activity. And that is something a lot of parents of girls are really worried about. So what are your thoughts in that particular space and what kinds of conversations could we be having with our girls, especially?
I don’t see boys doing it as much, but the girls are like setting themselves up with full photo shoots on beaches kind of thing.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (25:37 – 29:39)I mean, here’s the thing. There is appearance pressure on kids of all genders and social media definitely is a factor in that appearance pressure. And so is other media like movies and other things, but social media definitely adds to it.
And kids of all genders are being photographed more, but undoubtedly these pressures fall most acutely on girls. And we see all the time the results of it. I mean, I was just looking at an admitted students Instagram on a university page.
And there were several young people who were like, here’s a picture of me in my bra. I’m like admitted students page. I’m going to meet the other kids from my university and I’m going to present myself in my underwear.
And I was like, okay, that’s a profound choice of like all the ways you could introduce yourself. This isn’t like you’re changing in front of your roommate and you’re having this is like, hi, here I am for everyone to see. And I mean, I think that there are a lot of great folks writing in from a feminist perspective about parenting in this moment and sort of figuring out that piece between the sort of bodily empowerment.
And we’re not afraid or embarrassed or ashamed of our bodies, but also how much our kids consciously or unconsciously reiterating actually very sexist tropes when they take certain kinds of pictures of themselves or when they feel like they’re doing something that a partner would want, even being influenced by pornography, frankly, in the ways that they’re self-presenting. So I’m just going to say that that is territory well worth thinking about. And I would refer you to like Peggy Orenstein.
Joanne Finkelstein has a great new book coming out in a couple of weeks called Sexism and Sensibility. I’m going to look at the subtitle, but it’s a very smart take, Raising Empowered Resilient Girls in the Modern World. These are important conversations and to just really listen to your daughter if she’s talking about, oh, that bikini selfie makes me feel really empowered and to try to not come from a shame-based place, but also to talk about safety and to talk about what other opportunities there are to represent yourself so that people can connect with you beyond just your body and the way your body looks.
And I think it’s also important to understand that the competitive dynamics that can happen between kids, like if I post my bikini selfie and my friend posts her bikini selfie, and then she gets more likes, you know, how’s that going to leave me feeling? And so these are just all really tricky scenarios. And this is where I really respect the young women who are pushing back against dress codes, especially when they’re being enforced sometimes in a racially biassed way or in a body biassed way where like two kids can wear the same thing.
And one kid has a very different figure than the other, and she’s getting sent home for dress code, and the other kid is allowed to wear the same thing. And I think it is an issue that young women tend to feel really strongly about, and I really respect that. I think at the same time as a parent, we can see what our kids are wearing and be like, you know, or see the ways they’re presenting themselves.
And so I just think it’s important to keep that line of communication open and to recognise too that kids are trying on these different personas, and when they’re trying on a more sexual persona, even if they’re not, as you say, like in a relationship, trying it on, right? And it’s an identity at school. We showed a difference or that like gesture.
Well, that’s not for me, that’s for the sort of kids at school or whatever. And you might be like, whoa, whoa, that’s not how I want you to present to the kids at school. But I think it’s important to recognise that kids are kind of code switching all the time, and they’re experimenting with different aspects of their identity, and sometimes also feel like it’s very safe to present themselves in a more sexual way online.
I wrote a chapter for Growing Up in Public about sexting.
[Alexx Stuart] (29:40 – 29:42)Yeah, I was just about to ask you about that. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (29:43 – 30:34)
And we are like, as parents, so worried and the legal ramifications in most places and the safety ramifications. But it’s very important to talk about safety, self-respect, and privacy with our kids, and also recognise that they may need to come to us if they’re in a situation where someone might have, you know, like if we want our kids to be able to come to us, if someone might have a video of them or a photo of them, that they later realise, you know, compromises their safety or compromises their privacy, or maybe they even realise it at the time, but someone’s using it in a way that is threatening or coercive. It’s really important for kids to know that they can come and talk to us and that they have options. And if we’ve just scared them about sexting to the point where they won’t even come to us, then they’re actually much more vulnerable to exploitation. [Alexx Stuart] (30:35 – 31:55)
Yeah. So preemptive conversations around awareness rather than just kind of hoping it doesn’t happen and kicking the conversation down the road. Yeah.
Yeah. I read a heartbreaking post from a dad recently whose son had taken his life. And the genesis of that happening was a sexed picture that was then distributed.
And he just never got over the shame of it. And he was teased constantly. And his goodbye note was, I’m sorry, I let you down.
And it was just, and the dad never felt like he was trying to fix it all and help him move on. And like, he was so supportive and it just killed him that his son still felt that way in the last seconds of his life. And I was just crying, reading this thinking, oh my God, it is literally a parent’s worst nightmare.
These kids are just trying to navigate the world, trying on intimacy with their first boyfriends and girlfriends. And what that looks like in 2024. And in the moment, probably thought, oh, probably a bit cheeky, but I’ll do it.
She’s done it. And then the haunting of that one tiny moment, right? Oh my goodness.
Horrible.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (31:56 – 32:00)Do you watch Heartbreak High or, I know that’s kind of extreme, but I’ve been watching Heartbreak High, is it? [Alexx Stuart] (32:00 – 32:05)
No, I haven’t watched it, but it’d probably be a good way to kind of get in touch. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (32:05 – 32:05)
Yeah. [Alexx Stuart] (32:06 – 32:07)
Hold on. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (32:09 – 32:09)
Okay. [Alexx Stuart] (32:10 – 32:16)
I watched the original cause I’m a child of the eighties and nineties. Yeah. I haven’t, I didn’t know there was a new one. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (32:16 – 32:51)
So they’ve remade it and it’s all about kind of sexual politics of high school and it’s pretty explicit. And I think, I think it’s, it’s really, I mean, I think a lot of teenagers would watch it and be like, whoa, that’s really explicit. You know, that’s more going on in my high school, but it’s TV, but it’s, it’s fun because it also does take on, you know, queerness and different kinds of relationships.
And the kids talk a lot about things like masturbation, which would be very, it would have been very taboo. Like when we, I mean, I also am a child of the eighties and like TV did not go there.
[Alexx Stuart] (32:52 – 33:02)Yeah. And do you think so? It would be healthy to watch a show like that, even if it is more explicit than the conversations you’re having right now with your teen. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (33:03 – 33:29)
Do you think these I wouldn’t watch that one with my kid. I think that would be cringy, but I have watched other shows like the magicians or I don’t know. I mean, it really depends.
Like I have a kid where I can watch, you know, more adult content with like, especially if there’s now like violence or other things, I mean, we’re sort of, the filters are off, right. He’s in 10th grade, he’s 15. But if it was something super sexual about teenagers, I feel like that would be weird.
And that neither of us would be happy watching that together.
[Alexx Stuart] (33:30 – 33:43)Oh yeah, no, we are definitely well into the stage of, can we please fast forward the sex scenes if we’re watching some like a family, like a movie and there happens to be a love interest. And yeah, it’s too cringe. Absolutely. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (33:44 – 33:47)
And I think that’s fair for everyone involved. [Alexx Stuart] (33:48 – 34:32)
Yeah. And, and so would watching heartbreak high as a parent of a teen be a good way for us to kind of almost just raise our awareness about the landscape of today? Cause I think a good show and good writing can actually bring those sorts of themes of the time to life really well when you didn’t grow up that way.
And half the battle is coming to this social media landscape from a place of curiosity, concern and conversation rather than, you know, discipline and shut down. And, oh, that’s you over there doing that. And just don’t do it for too long.
Like, I feel like we’re not.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (34:32 – 34:40)I think I might reassure you about your own kid because that show is a little extreme or something like sex education UK show, which is also kind of extreme. [Alexx Stuart] (34:40 – 34:40)
Yeah. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (34:42 – 37:27)
Might like, might be, might be a lot for some parents. I mean, I think if you have a kid who hasn’t dated at all, and then you watch heartbreak high, you’re going to be like, it’s going to like, is this what it’s like? And the answer is, you know, this is TV, but it’s coming from a place of thinking about what it’s like to be young.
I mean, on the other, on the other side, another UK show heartstopper, which is this very sweet gay romantic story that I’ve written a little bit about in relation to texting, where you see the love interests start texting each other. And you also see how the friend group texts. And I think that, you know, the, the, it’s based on a graphic novel and the author Alice Oseman is very young.
And I think she really captures the sort of tentative feeling of like just texting someone for the first time and like waiting for the response bubble and seeing the little response window. And then like, it shuts down and they’re thinking about what to say. And you’re like, and it is, I think that’s very relatable.
So I would say like heartstopper and maybe some people could, I know families that have watched heartstopper together again, not from my kid, too romantic, but just not, and not of interest. He doesn’t really like teen shows at all, but I think heartstopper, you could watch with your kids. If you have a different kid, watch other romantic things, you know where, but, and, and it’s a very sweet, like the friend groups are very sweet and supportive on that show.
Whereas there’s like a lot of betrayal, honestly, in heartbreak high and some of these other shows, which is very real for teens. And I think we’re relatable as well. And you see kids sort of get cancelled, like saying, doing the wrong thing and kind of having a lot of people shun them, which is kids like worst fear.
This is why I wrote growing up in public is because this idea of something you say, do you get videoed or photographed and then it gets really, and then you’re sort of out, you know, you’ve sort of like lost, you know, in society because you’ve done this bad thing, you’ve made this transgression. And I think, you know, in some ways in the digital age, there are kids who are kind of living in fear of some kind of transgression that is going to get them cancelled. And we need to help.
We don’t want to teach kids that what they do, they’re not accountable at all. And what they do doesn’t matter because it does matter. And if you harm someone else, you should be accountable at the same time.
We also don’t want to teach kids that any little mistake of their friends is something they should pounce on and videotape, you know, like before you videotape your friend when she’s like drunk or just had dental work and she’s out of it saying stupid stuff. Like maybe think about like, would I want someone to do that to me? Is this a good idea?
Is this the kind of friend I want to be or the kind of peer or classmate I want to be? Do I want to live in a world where people are gotcha-ing each other with this kind of thing?
[Alexx Stuart] (37:27 – 38:11)Yeah. And you bring up gotcha moments in the book really well, I think. And the sharing of things that you wouldn’t want shared about yourself is just such a, I mean, really we’ve just got to think of the basic principles of being a good human and ushering our kids to reflect and think consequentially.
And big tech almost doesn’t let us have that as our default because it favours sensationalism and gotcha and outrage and pitting people against each other. So it’s almost like you have to really teach kids that that is actually how it’s geared, but that’s not how being a good human looks.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (38:13 – 38:26)Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
A good friend actually writes to their friend and says that post is, doesn’t, you don’t want to have that out there. Like, what are you doing? Take it down.
Like that’s what a good friend would do.
[Alexx Stuart] (38:27 – 39:12)Yeah. Well, I think there’s just so much to unpack, Devorah. Oh my gosh.
Okay. So the next question I want to ask you is around socialising, like socialising in person, because sometimes my son says things to me about what a kid has said to another kid or what someone’s done to him. And it almost feels like sometimes, and I don’t know if I’ve got the read on this wrong, cause I’m fully putting my hand up as Gen X and now firmly separated from this brave new world that our kids are joining.
But at the same time, it sounds like they haven’t had enough practise in person. It sounds like they haven’t been checked.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (39:12 – 40:25)I agree. I agree. I think kids do need more practise in person.
We need to make more space, having more lunchtime at school, you know, and maybe it is like incentivising kids to put down their phones in some ways. And like, you know, whether it’s just like having, I mean, I sort of fantasise about a place like Sydney, having like a lot of open space at school, but like here it’s cold year round and the kids are like in the building all day and they’re in this huge cafeteria. There’s no like volleyball happening at lunch or anything, but I wish there was, because I think that kids need things to do.
And even like, we don’t do recess at the high school level, but I think kids need that kind of social time during the school day. Cause that’s when they are together physically in the same place, right? When they go home, it’s hard for them to get them like back out again.
And again, that may be my experience cause I’m in the suburbs, but it’s really important to give kids opportunities to be together and interact. I mean, I’ve even seen, you know, kids like all sitting and they’re the lifeguards here at the beach where they’re not the one on duty. Those guys aren’t on the phone, thank goodness.
But like the kids who are sort of waiting in the wings and they’re all the time on their phones. I’m like, guys, what if, you know, you’re there.
[Alexx Stuart] (40:27 – 41:33)Yeah. And I think, yeah, that there seems to be almost a parent activist advocacy opportunity here to create more communal spaces with a sense of purpose, like, you know, roll out a few more ping pong tables at the local park or a skate ramp, or, you know, something we’ve been thinking about a lot. Cause my son has to take a bus 20 minutes away to the nearest basketball hoop to, to shoot some hoops and practise.
Or you have to pay $35 if you want to pay tennis or, you know, and so barriers to entry, you don’t want to send them to the mall because then it’s kind of enforcing a, what I don’t have versus the one kid who gets given the a hundred bucks and then makes everybody jealous because they buy a couple of things and it’s all about them. Like, I think it’s a really interesting thing to be a lot more intentional about as a parent. That’s what I feel like we’re being called to do.
And, and to think about how we can reach out to local politicians and say, we don’t have anywhere to send our kids to hang out. That’s safe.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (41:33 – 43:43)We can incentivise our kids. I mean, I will say like my kid likes to play video games. He’s not super like, he’s not a gamer, you know, like that’s not his biggest thing.
It is a way that he hangs out with friends. And sometimes I’ll say like, you can game, but you got to game with other people or you can game, but you have to like, go have somebody over and do it in person, you know? So I think it’s, it’s okay to kind of incentivise our kids.
I mean, that said, I don’t think the answer is just taking away the tech. And especially if we haven’t created spaces, I’m really wary of anyone who thinks there’s a simple, you know, I’m really wary of anyone who thinks there’s a simple solution to this, because I don’t think it’s so simple. I don’t think we just take away the phones and then the kids just magically socialise.
I think there are a lot of factors keeping kids from hanging out in person. And we need to work with our kids to kind of figure it out and help them find ways to be together that they enjoy and that work for them. And as you say, they don’t have these economic and social barriers like the mall.
We certainly used to hang out at the mall, but then, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t great. I mean, I grew up in suburbia in the eighties and the mall had a lot of problems and we would go bother our friends who worked at the mall. That probably wasn’t great.
Probably not great for their job. That wasn’t really good social behaviour. Right.
So there’s like a lot of problems with the mall. But it was sort of a place to see and be seen and all of that. Right.
And then we would go downtown. I mean, I grew up in the suburbs of New York city. So we would go into Manhattan and we’d walk around and, you know, but we really didn’t have a lot of money.
So we’d kind of walk around until we ran out of money completely. And then we’d have to go home. Right.
But my kid did not go into Chicago the way I went into New York. And I wish that he would. So I think some of it is also like, what are we doing to make sure public transit is safe?
What are we doing to teach kids how to use it? I will say he’s gotten a lot more independent on his bike in the last couple of years. And that was a real intention from my family where we’re like, my husband’s a cyclist.
And we’re like, we’re going to teach you how to get from point A to point B. Like if you need a ride somewhere and it’s three miles away, like you’re going to bike there, you know, it’s not 20 miles. It doesn’t involve a highway.
Like you can get there and we don’t need to be involved. And then you can leave when you want to leave and you’re not stuck waiting around.
[Alexx Stuart] (43:45 – 44:49)I’m I’m doing some root cause thinking as I’m hearing the subjects that we’re talking about develop. And while I absolutely am pro women and men being able to choose big careers and push, push, push and go and create amazing things in the world. I do remember as a kid myself, economically, the middle class thrived a lot more.
It meant that having to work was not like a crazy necessity for every single double parent situation. And there was always a mom like hanging around. Even if a few moms were working, there was always one or two that were like making the snacks and letting all the kids hang out.
And I almost feel like the evaporation of middle class and the kind of necessity, the forced everybody has to work because that’s the only way we can make it work can play a bit of a role in a lack of socialisation in our kids and the screen being relied upon as a bit of a babysitter.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (44:50 – 45:13)And I also think the kids when they’re older will seek out the house that doesn’t have somebody’s mom. Like there’s always somebody’s mom who is home or works from home now. Because a lot of us work from home now, but I think, you know, my kid and his friends are not up to anything bad, but they’ll still go to the house where there’s more space or more space away from the adults.
Like, because my husband and I both work from home, this is not necessarily the most desirable.
[Alexx Stuart] (45:15 – 45:39)Well, yeah, I guess I was thinking maybe more of young, the younger set where like thinking back to what we were talking about, about God, have these kids actually socialised enough? They’re the same things without filters all the time. And they’re now 15.
I kind of saw myself as like a maybe eight to 10 year old, just constantly hanging out with friends in the safety of a home that always had a parent there.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (45:41 – 46:01)And it is important to see the impact of what you say, you know, kids are being like unkind to each other on, you know, discord or YouTube and they need to know like, Hey, that sounds a little different when you say it out loud or, you know, and again, you know, when kids make jokes about ethnicity or whatever, maybe that feels safe to do in your friend group, but you have to be really careful about doing that. [Alexx Stuart] (46:02 – 46:02)
Yeah. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (46:02 – 46:06)
I’m really thoughtful and I was too, that it might get taken out of context. [Alexx Stuart] (46:06 – 46:46)
Yeah. A hundred percent. FOMO is something I saw you talking about the other day online.
And, and I wanted to explore that because one of the aspects of socials that really does get a lot of kids down is maybe you didn’t get invited to the party. And then you’re watching like in the eighties, if I didn’t get invited to the party, it was just a moment, an hour or two where I might’ve been sad and shitty and kind of move on and go on to do something else. But now the kid knows that they have their sad, shitty moment.
And then they have to watch the fricking live updates of the party, you know, stream across them.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (46:46 – 47:11)It’s so brutal. Oh my gosh. Hardly anything more brutal than like watching a party that you’re not invited to like, just like transpire online.
And I would hope that the kid would just put away their phone and do something else. And kids tell me that they do, that they know that they should like go read a book or see other friends. And, you know, my favourite group of 11 year olds I ever talked to said, what would you do if this happened?
And they were like, just invite another friend over and then take a picture. So you look like you have a life.
[Alexx Stuart] (47:11 – 47:12)I love that. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (47:12 – 47:14)
Very honest answer. [Alexx Stuart] (47:14 – 47:20)
So it’s almost a resilience building opportunity in that case. Yeah. Like what could you do? [Devorah Heitner PhD] (47:21 – 47:25)
It is rough. It would have been rough for me because I was definitely not a popular kid. Yeah. [Alexx Stuart] (47:28 – 47:56)
And, and so what you mentioned kids that you speak to, what are some of the things kids are saying to you that you’re as a researcher on the topic? You know, you have a PhD, you obviously found things in that research. And that’s, you know, culminated in this brilliant book.
Is there anything kids have told you that you thought, wow, I really didn’t think about that or, Oh, I didn’t even see that being a problem as both a researcher and a parent on the topic.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (47:57 – 49:10)I’ve learned that texting is more kind of important and complicated than we realise that need to do more as educators and parents to help kids with texting. So that’s a big and group texts, especially early in like the middle grades can be really tricky. So we tend to focus on social media, but we should be thinking also about texting and games are really important social space for kids, whether it’s like roadblocks and Minecraft or other games that maybe older kids are playing.
So it’s just good to understand that these are social spaces for our kids. And I think the kids are smarter than we realised that too, about the ways social media can be manipulative. I’m not saying that they don’t need more education about those design factors that I talked about, but they’re also not dupes.
You know, they do recognise like, Oh, I’m being sold a certain vision of the world or a certain vision of, you know, what my body should look like, whether they’re, you know, feeling bad about themselves in relation to that, even though they know that they’re being manipulated is a different question. But kids are aware that the algorithm can be manipulated back by liking things that will be more positive, control their online experience and have a better experience online.
[Alexx Stuart] (49:11 – 49:47)Yeah, absolutely. Such valid points. And so as a parent of a 15 year old, what does healthy social media and texting conversation look like?
I think that would probably be a great place to finish. So people can get some little ideas of things they can start chatting about, like in terms of how often you check in with your kid or how much you make sure that you’re seeing in terms of shared access and things like that. What does it look like for you?
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (49:48 – 50:57)I think it’s important to be honest with your kid if you are looking at their texts and other things to be really honest about that and talk about what you’re looking for and why and not try to be covertly monitoring them. And then ideally you’re backing off from monitoring over time as your kid grows and becomes more independent. So, you know, some like if you’re monitoring a new user who’s maybe in middle school or junior high school, that’s one thing and let them know what you’re looking for and why.
And maybe you’re looking at it actually with them and helping them kind of think about, you know, oh, I see this person responded this way. What do you think about that choice? Asking them their opinion.
And then as time goes on, you’re backing off from that level of monitoring and just encouraging them to come to you if certain things come up and asking them, you know, some theoreticals, like how would you troubleshoot if everyone’s saying, hey, let’s restart the group text without so-and-so, or if people are talking in a cruel way about a teacher, like what would you do? And just like what are your options, you know, and it’s good for kids to remember there’s always the option to just leave a conversation. You don’t always have to be an upstander and put on your superhero cape.
Sometimes leaving the conversation is just a really powerful and healthy choice.
[Alexx Stuart] (50:57 – 51:22)That is so important. I really feel leaving a conversation is a healthy choice. And I think if our kids know that, then it’s like leaving a situation, like, you know, what’s the code word for me picking you up from the party?
We need them to realise that the party is happening on social as well, and they can exit anytime they want.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (51:22 – 51:40)A hundred percent. Yeah. And that we’re there for them and that we recognise that sometimes there are really toxic things going on in the community and it’s not your kid’s fault when that’s happening.
So I think it’s also important to say, you know, you’re not judging them. You’re not judging their full friend group just because sometimes a conversation goes in a negative direction. That’s something that happens.
[Alexx Stuart] (51:42 – 52:06)And so in that, how much should our kids be empowered to stand up to things that they don’t see going well? Because in person you’d say, mate, just stop doing that to him. He doesn’t deserve that.
You know, that’s what I teach my kid to do, like stand up for people who are being victimised and so online. Is that a greyer area?
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (52:06 – 53:05)I think the way you respond when someone’s being mean to someone in person, you have a similar set of options online. Like another thing you can do is have affinity with the target. You know, so even if you, you know, you’re in a situation where you’re on the subway and someone’s harassing someone, you can sit next to that person.
You can see how they’re doing. You can, and if it’s at school, like maybe you don’t feel safe. Like maybe there’s a physical altercation brewing and you feel like I can’t, I’m not in a physical place where I can defend this person, but maybe you like start another conversation or maybe if it’s online, you reach out to the person who was targeted and say, are you okay?
That wasn’t really okay. What happened there? So maybe you confront the bully.
I would say online in a group text situation, I wouldn’t necessarily confront them publicly. I would go to them one-to-one and say, I didn’t like what you said there. If you do it publicly, most people will respond by doubling down and getting defensive.
So most people don’t respond well to being publicly corrected.
[Alexx Stuart] (53:06 – 53:21)Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much to think about.
In writing the book and in your PhD, what do you think the most important thing we can do as parents with our kids growing up in public?
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (53:22 – 53:40)I think it’s the most important thing is to stay curious, stay in the conversation, keep listening to them, keep checking in. And also it’s really important to model positive behaviour on our own social media and with our own phone, including putting it away and having a sense of humour about the ways we might feel manipulated by tech. [Alexx Stuart] (53:41 – 53:44)
And sharing our negative experiences. [Devorah Heitner PhD] (53:45 – 53:47)
Yeah. And positive experiences. [Alexx Stuart] (53:47 – 54:25)
And positive. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Devorah, thank you for the work you do to advocate for the nuanced conversation around growing up in public.
I think staying curious about a new generation and how they’re operating, connecting, what they’re finding difficult is so key. And I really value your voice in not making it all doom and gloom, but actually in raising awareness about how this could look good, better, and what we need in the physical world to balance out that time that we spend online in public. So I really appreciate you being here and sharing with us.
[Devorah Heitner PhD] (54:26 – 54:45)Thank you so much. It’s my pleasure to talk with you about this topic. And I hope parents and folks listening about kids in their lives will have good conversations about this stuff with the kids in your life.
And hopefully there’s some good conversations in your future because kids have a lot to say about this topic.
[Alexx Stuart] (54:45 – 57:54)And that is definitely the main thing that came out for me about everything we talked about is stay curious and talk with them more, not at them, but with them. Learn. I hope you loved today’s show as much as I loved bringing it to you.
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